How can people be ok with Vengeance?

[Deathgoose]

So, I see people are still whining about this enough that it's still ongoing?

For any DPS that is crying over vengeance, answer me one question: Were you removed from the raid as DPS in favor of someone in a tank spec with tank gear that would not be the MT/OT (which means they wouldn't be gaining any appreciable AP from vengeance and their DPS would be horrible)?

If yes, then you must really suck as DPS. Gratz!
If no, then what are you bitching about? Your spot wasn't taken, and it's not like you can do the tank's job as DPS. Besides, if the Boss dies everyone wins, not just #1 on recount.

[Goldfingaz]

Shame that's not the simplest solution. Leaving it like it is would be the simplest solution here. And my arguments are not nearly as tired as the case against Vengeance. If it's tired, more people would be getting it, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

When a mechanic needs to be reworked over and over and over again, it isn't a good mechanic. It's poor design to develop something that needs constant changing.

[Derah]

How can I be ok with Vengeance? easy, because I'm a tank, and then there's THIS

[ihyln]

It was implemented to stop high-geared DPS always stealing threat. In some fights due to the boss mechanics, the tanks will top DPS. But most of the time DPS will - if they know their role. The threat gen is already boosted 500% but that still isnt enough if your say a newly starting out tank vs someone even half geared.

-Grim

If vengeance was created because of high geared DPS then threat is an old and outdated mechanic. Typical Blizzard behavior with shortsighted bandaid fixes.

[EtherealMists]

For some reason, it won't let me quote, so here is the line from Raiju "Vengeance is an extremely poor mechanic and pretty much offers the reverse of what not-so-capable tanks wanted to get into tanking. Instead of fixing the system blizzard just bump up base threat each tier so now anyone who even read their spells upon dinging (new player POV) can hold agro."

I'm choosing to focus on what is bolded here, because it seems to be a recurring theme that the tanks didn't need more damage to keep threat, since things worked before. Back in Wrath, tanks were regularly losing threat in the later tiers (when Vengeance was introduced) because the DPS refused to wait for any time to attack. As soon as the boss was pulled, everyone went balls out, and then yelled at the tank for "not holding aggro". Take a look at any run today, even tanks that have a ramp up time, such as paladins, people start going balls to the wall before the first 2 hits of the seal, and the boss turns. As a tank, I'll agree to take away Vengeance if all the DPS is willing to wait 3-5 seconds before they start attacking again, you know, like Vanilla that many people seem to have loved so much. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid, so Blizzard introduced a way that people could continue to play as they were, without making it so people who were playing tanks and enjoying it quit tanking.

I have been tanking for almost 7 years, and still enjoy the challenges of the role. If I lose Vengeance, then I will refuse to taunt off people that are hitting the boss before 5 seconds into the fight.

[Goldfingaz]

For some reason, it won't let me quote, so here is the line from Raiju "Vengeance is an extremely poor mechanic and pretty much offers the reverse of what not-so-capable tanks wanted to get into tanking. Instead of fixing the system blizzard just bump up base threat each tier so now anyone who even read their spells upon dinging (new player POV) can hold agro."

I'm choosing to focus on what is bolded here, because it seems to be a recurring theme that the tanks didn't need more damage to keep threat, since things worked before. Back in Wrath, tanks were regularly losing threat in the later tiers (when Vengeance was introduced) because the DPS refused to wait for any time to attack. As soon as the boss was pulled, everyone went balls out, and then yelled at the tank for "not holding aggro". Take a look at any run today, even tanks that have a ramp up time, such as paladins, people start going balls to the wall before the first 2 hits of the seal, and the boss turns. As a tank, I'll agree to take away Vengeance if all the DPS is willing to wait 3-5 seconds before they start attacking again, you know, like Vanilla that many people seem to have loved so much. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid, so Blizzard introduced a way that people could continue to play as they were, without making it so people who were playing tanks and enjoying it quit tanking.

I have been tanking for almost 7 years, and still enjoy the challenges of the role. If I lose Vengeance, then I will refuse to taunt off people that are hitting the boss before 5 seconds into the fight.

That early threat issue could be be solved by competent Hunters and Rogues using Misdirection and Tricks. (and if Blizz reverted them to their natural form of leaving the threat on the tanks)

[endersblade]

I never understood this complaint. "ONOZ, our tank is out-DPS'ing the DPS!" ....who the fuck cares? You should be worried about how your RAID is performing overall, not that the tank is topping charts. If your tank is doing stupidly high DPS, THAT IS A GOOD THING!!!!! Cripes, fucking ridiculous QQ'ing! Pull your e-peen out of your ear ffs. He's holding agro so you can sit back and complain about him out-DPS'ing you. He's probably also making up for the piss-poor DPS that you're doing while QQ'ing in the first place.

As far as PvP goes...meh, can't comment as I don't do it. I can't imagine someone surviving long enough to get their vengeance up high enough to be a problem, else they would nerf the fuck out of it like they do everything that works perfectly fine in PvE but some twit happens to abuse in PvP.

[huth]

on some fights like windlord and empress p2 it's possible.

I doubt that. You'd need to take 2.5 times your own health in unmitigated damage per second to reach the cap.

[Gandrake]

How can I be ok with vengeance?

How can you be ok with people doing anywhere from early firelands dps to early dragon soul dps? I would be really annoyed if I could not carry a group as a tank.

I don't have a problem with getting a satchel for doing 40% of the group's dps. It's made the job for queuing for satchels so much easier. I actually got my Blue Proto-Drake and Raven Lord last week, and I've probably run close to a thousand heroics (across 4 characters) this expansion.

As for raids... Well, the encounters are designed around it. That's why people aren't stacking blood dks to kill the boss. Sure, I was annoyed on day 1 that Blood DK was doing all the damage on Stone Guard, but all that matters is that the group is progressing and I'm having fun myself.

[Deleted]

When a mechanic needs to be reworked over and over and over again, it isn't a good mechanic. It's poor design to develop something that needs constant changing.

Then we should do away with Deathknights, Vanish and Retribution Paladins!

[Zalamander]

I doubt that. You'd need to take 2.5 times your own health in unmitigated damage per second to reach the cap.

That sounds pretty easy for a tank to take, since they can probably take tons more dmg per second than 2.5 times theire health unmitigated.
Consider you can pop some CDs and get a 80% dmg mitigation for a few sec while doing a massive AoE tanking that means you can take 4 times your health in mitigated dmg per second and still survive since many healers are spamming heals on you.

[Deleted]

As a pure dps, i have no problems with this, i raid with my team, and if a tank doubles everyone damage, people will know it's because of vengeance.
Do i mind losing to a tank on a fight with lots of tank damage and huge vengeance scaling? No ofcourse not, we killed the boss right?

Now if we would be talking single target, i would just feel bad.

[huth]

That sounds pretty easy for a tank to take, since they can probably take tons more dmg per second than 2.5 times theire health unmitigated.
Consider you can pop some CDs and get a 80% dmg mitigation for a few sec while doing a massive AoE tanking that means you can take 4 times your health in mitigated dmg per second and still survive since many healers are spamming heals on you.

4 times your health reduced by 80% is still 80% of your health per second. For a normal raidequipped tank, that's over 540k DPS.
If all of the enemies attacks sync up, you actually take 160% of your health all at once.

[Raiju]

I'm choosing to focus on what is bolded here, because it seems to be a recurring theme that the tanks didn't need more damage to keep threat, since things worked before. Back in Wrath, tanks were regularly losing threat in the later tiers (when Vengeance was introduced) because the DPS refused to wait for any time to attack. As soon as the boss was pulled, everyone went balls out, and then yelled at the tank for "not holding aggro". Take a look at any run today, even tanks that have a ramp up time, such as paladins, people start going balls to the wall before the first 2 hits of the seal, and the boss turns

As someone who mained paladin tank, no. Our threat was one of if not the easiest to hold in wrath. 96969 was almost as easy as shadowbolt spam, you get the first 4 buttons correct and you were set the entire fight. As mentioned you also had MD's for occasions where aggro may be a risk.

As a tank, I'll agree to take away Vengeance if all the DPS is willing to wait 3-5 seconds before they start attacking again, you know, like Vanilla that many people seem to have loved so much. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid, so Blizzard introduced a way that people could continue to play as they were, without making it so people who were playing tanks and enjoying it quit tanking.

You could have put in the 500% threat without vengeance and you would still have no problems holding agro anywhere in wrath. The fact that change went in proved that vengeance didn't work.

I have been tanking for almost 7 years, and still enjoy the challenges of the role. If I lose Vengeance, then I will refuse to taunt off people that are hitting the boss before 5 seconds into the fight.

what we all enjoy is entirely our own opinion, but I rarely saw decent tanks in cata lose agro. There was once in a blue moon where say I would get lucky with crits and they miss at the start of ultraxion where we both start on the split second, but that was remedied by a rogue using tricks on the tanks at the start of the fight. If we didn't have a rogue I don't see the issue with people waiting.

[ripponesan]

I have my opinion to venegance as well and it aint no good one, but i have some point with your post.

Even tho i went casual with MOP, yeah i have a raid that raids 2 times a week, but considering the level and dedication i´d say its still casual. So eventho i went casual i still like to cap my valor points or at least get near the cap.
Once you got one or two peices from LFR you are seriously outgearing heroic instances but still you kinda need to go there for the points. And even if i come back 2 tiers later and would like to do a heroic instance again without people telling me that i should have other business.
As a mage i cant tank a mob when i aggro it. Well i actually can technically speaking, but neither can i sustain the damage i pulled aggro with when i got someone beating on me, nor can i be sure the healer will get it done. It is not like TBC anymore where every mob oneshotted a clothie.

What i can do is stay alert with aggro and not pull it of the tank no matter how much i outgear him. But that needs attention which is rare in heroics.

[HardCoder]

You could have put in the 500% threat without vengeance and you would still have no problems holding agro anywhere in wrath. The fact that change went in proved that vengeance didn't work.

Is this really about raiding, or about 5-mans? And, also, isn't it mostly about trash? (Which is what wipes groups in 5-mans most of the time.)

Until the tank changes in mid 2011 it was easy for a mediocre DPS (like me) to pull trash off a tank in ZA/G. On my spriest it was always wait a beat, mind sear, fade because they were coming for me anyway. On my boomkin it was more like just watch for a while and then hope whatever I hit was already severely pissed off at the tank or someone else who didn't have a threat dump.

I never, or rarely, ran into that in Wrath, but in Cata I was pulling stuff off tanks all the time, until the 5x change went through.

[Goldfingaz]

Then we should do away with Deathknights, Vanish and Retribution Paladins!

Classes are unfortunately an exception to the rule as they are always adding and taking away abilities.

Vanish however has been broken since.. forever. Which is different in it's own.

When you design a mechanic, to cover for a failing mechanic, that mechanic will eventually fail. Fixing the original mechanic was the proper way to go about doing it, but somewhere some special lil' feller decided "INO! Lets have tanks do more damage instead of trying to tweak threat numbers per spell. Yup that should fix it! /nod"

@The guy above me: During Cat, the only time I lost threat in multi-mob situations was ZA, and that was the Lynx gauntlet because I'd get stunned and couldn't hit anything until it was over. Maybe if you were a proper DPS, you'd ramp up your abilities that need ramping (SW:P, DP, VT) and THEN start with the AoE DPS you would have less of an issue, if you kept having issues then it was simply a bad tank not doing their own job properly.

[Raiju]

Is this really about raiding, or about 5-mans? And, also, isn't it mostly about trash? (Which is what wipes groups in 5-mans most of the time.)

Until the tank changes in mid 2011 it was easy for a mediocre DPS (like me) to pull trash off a tank in ZA/G. On my spriest it was always wait a beat, mind sear, fade because they were coming for me anyway. On my boomkin it was more like just watch for a while and then hope whatever I hit was already severely pissed off at the tank or someone else who didn't have a threat dump.

I never, or rarely, ran into that in Wrath, but in Cata I was pulling stuff off tanks all the time, until the 5x change went through.

Yes, because vengeance didn't solve anything. After TBC the only real risk outside gimmick fights was a tank losing aggro in the first few seconds (covered by MD's) of the fight. Vengeance did not create this - it was simply the result of a dps getting 'lucky' and a tank getting 'unlucky' in conjunction with one another. If anything reverse vengeance would make more sense where you would as a tank start off with a guaranteed hit for say, double damage if it's the first hit on the mob.

While I personally don't see the point in tanks doing damage it's a preference thing I won't argue against. Either doing double threat or damage it is the same result to me in the long run.

[Deleted]

Vengeance was introduced to increase thread generation agianst high end geared DPS. Ok I get that. What I dont get is why Vengeance increases DPS and threat and not threat alone?

[nightfalls]

You are in a fight. You have 1 person yelling at you and slapping you. You have another who is beating the hell out of you. Who do you want to attack first?

The smart guy would hit the second one. But who said bosses had to be smart?

Seeing the number of people in BG's tunnel full-on-HAM on a prot warrior while completely ignoring the healer standing next to him makes me think a lot of bosses might go with the first one.