How can people be ok with Vengeance?

[Goldfingaz]

Then we should do away with Deathknights, Vanish and Retribution Paladins!

Classes are unfortunately an exception to the rule as they are always adding and taking away abilities.

Vanish however has been broken since.. forever. Which is different in it's own.

When you design a mechanic, to cover for a failing mechanic, that mechanic will eventually fail. Fixing the original mechanic was the proper way to go about doing it, but somewhere some special lil' feller decided "INO! Lets have tanks do more damage instead of trying to tweak threat numbers per spell. Yup that should fix it! /nod"

@The guy above me: During Cat, the only time I lost threat in multi-mob situations was ZA, and that was the Lynx gauntlet because I'd get stunned and couldn't hit anything until it was over. Maybe if you were a proper DPS, you'd ramp up your abilities that need ramping (SW:P, DP, VT) and THEN start with the AoE DPS you would have less of an issue, if you kept having issues then it was simply a bad tank not doing their own job properly.

[Raiju]

Is this really about raiding, or about 5-mans? And, also, isn't it mostly about trash? (Which is what wipes groups in 5-mans most of the time.)

Until the tank changes in mid 2011 it was easy for a mediocre DPS (like me) to pull trash off a tank in ZA/G. On my spriest it was always wait a beat, mind sear, fade because they were coming for me anyway. On my boomkin it was more like just watch for a while and then hope whatever I hit was already severely pissed off at the tank or someone else who didn't have a threat dump.

I never, or rarely, ran into that in Wrath, but in Cata I was pulling stuff off tanks all the time, until the 5x change went through.

Yes, because vengeance didn't solve anything. After TBC the only real risk outside gimmick fights was a tank losing aggro in the first few seconds (covered by MD's) of the fight. Vengeance did not create this - it was simply the result of a dps getting 'lucky' and a tank getting 'unlucky' in conjunction with one another. If anything reverse vengeance would make more sense where you would as a tank start off with a guaranteed hit for say, double damage if it's the first hit on the mob.

While I personally don't see the point in tanks doing damage it's a preference thing I won't argue against. Either doing double threat or damage it is the same result to me in the long run.

[Dzudzadzo]

Vengeance was introduced to increase thread generation agianst high end geared DPS. Ok I get that. What I dont get is why Vengeance increases DPS and threat and not threat alone?

[voidspark]

You are in a fight. You have 1 person yelling at you and slapping you. You have another who is beating the hell out of you. Who do you want to attack first?

The smart guy would hit the second one. But who said bosses had to be smart?

Seeing the number of people in BG's tunnel full-on-HAM on a prot warrior while completely ignoring the healer standing next to him makes me think a lot of bosses might go with the first one.

[Oxyra]

Man, I loved tanking when I did like 1/6th of the DPS's damage, and it didn't matter what buttons I pushed as long as I stood there and had my face jizzed on by everything possible.

Oh hey, a fun mechanic for tanks that involves us actually contributing to the raid.

All of a sudden, every under performing DPS ever is QQing about it. *act shocked*

[voidspark]

'I am the main tank of our raid. I played a tank because I want to proudly stand toe-to-toe with our foe, attract its attention while our party unleash hell at a safe distance. I want to control and minimize the damage I take to lessen the burden on our healer so he is free to help whoever needs it.
Wait, you are replacing me? Why? What, we don't have enough dps to beat the enrage timer? But I'm a tank? Rawrr.....'

The counter-argument to this is that tanks have always swapped stats to get enrage timers. I know when I was briefly a main tank for my 10m weekend raiding guild in DS that I put on a DPS trinket for Yor'sahj, and for Ultraxion (first kill) I got hit/soft exp capped. Not because tank damage was super-super high (though you could get that way on Ultraxion), but every little bit really did help.

[EtherealMists]

Yeah, if there's a hunter or rogue in the group, they can MD to me as people have pointed out, but personally I know that I'm finding even now, with my paladin who is just working on geared for LFR/raid, that in 5 mans I'm having issue keeping threat on bosses. In Cata and Wrath, if you were working on gearing and ran into a geared DPS, you could charge in, hit your double threat ability, and if it missed, hope and pray that your taunt would be off CD when people pulled off you. Vengeance is very strong at the beginning of an Xpac, but by the end, without it, the tanks just won't hold aggro.

An interesting side note, I don't see healers whining that tanks are outhealing them on a couple of fights right now, but it's happening. Wind Lord LFR the paladin tank outhealed all healers the other day with WoG and Sacred Shield, and Feng's shielding tank counts as healing done too.

[Raiju]

An interesting side note, I don't see healers whining that tanks are outhealing them on a couple of fights right now, but it's happening. Wind Lord LFR the paladin tank outhealed all healers the other day with WoG and Sacred Shield, and Feng's shielding tank counts as healing done too.

You should look harder, then. There is a fair amount of it.

@Oxyra if you just sat there on a progression fight you would probably cause your raid to wipe due to dps being stuck behind you.

In TBC and vanilla threat was a huge issue, in wrath the threat issue was essentially removed - and instead tanks were about timing cooldowns with these big oneshotting blows. In cata blizzard added vengeance and it didn't help at all, so they bumped threat up again. Dk's were active tanks during this time and blizzard (and myself) liked it so they made all tanks active tanks in mists. Unfortunately they also tried to insist on using this vengeance mechanic.

[lordzed83]

This is L2P Issue.
When i DPS in my main spec. I out dps tanks and all the bads in dungeons(average 85k-90k as fury) and LFR.
All my mates do 70k+ dps average on dungeons
My hunter mat that dinged and got himself only cheap boe pvp hear was doing 36k+ 1 hour after dinging 90. That is 450 ilvl gear !!!
When i tank i out dps all the bads with average dungeon dps around 55k in full epic

In my opinion if DPS cant push 60k on average in dungeon or raid . He sucks as dps and he should roll a healer tank or quit playing wow.
Last weekend i had half epic geared ret doing 21k mage doing 25. WTF is that ??

[Firebert]

In my opinion if DPS cant push 60k on average in dungeon or raid . He sucks as dps and he should roll a healer tank or quit playing wow.
Last weekend i had half epic geared ret doing 21k mage doing 25. WTF is that ??

It's called enjoying yourself and not caring about the meters.

[Oxyra]

You should look harder, then. There is a fair amount of it.

@Oxyra if you just sat there on a progression fight you would probably cause your raid to wipe due to dps being stuck behind you.

In TBC and vanilla threat was a huge issue, in wrath the threat issue was essentially removed - and instead tanks were about timing cooldowns with these big oneshotting blows. In cata blizzard added vengeance and it didn't help at all, so they bumped threat up again. Dk's were active tanks during this time and blizzard (and myself) liked it so they made all tanks active tanks in mists. Unfortunately they also tried to insist on using this vengeance mechanic.

Define: Sarcasm

sar·casm
/ˈsärˌkazəm/

Noun
The use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

Synonyms
irony

Infracted

[carebear]

I played a tank for 4 years and didn't touch any other role after that because I enjoyed tanking so much. Now I find tanking to be the most boring role in the game because of vengeance and what tanking has become in MOP. I miss having to worry about threat and just aimlessly pressing buttons.

[Rhelyo]

Lets take Wind lord for example with his 8 adds for example.My guild doesnt use any cc for this fight.Boss is pulled.4 minutes into the fight the TANK sits at 900k dps.Boss goes down tank ends up ranked 2 with almost 500k dps,also 150+ mil dmg done.Name me 1 class who can outdps this (for ppl who said l2play).
Also to those who are saying that tanks dps help the raid bring the boss down faster.WRONG.While it's true for when you are already having the raid bosses on "farm",i'm pretty sure when u first go into a raid dungeon and face off a boss for the first time in your vp/heroics gear the bosses HP is already "buffed" to compensate for the tanks dps/dmg.

[Milmo]

Try replacing all the dps in your raid with tanks and then come back and tell us how it went...

It's been done...

[Raugnaut]

I don't know about methematically impossible. I definitely remember gemming all stam and having to hit taunt more than I do now though. :P I'll never forget my first tanking of BQL I was like "crap I just hit 80, they are going to rip off me", nope, AND I got the shield. :>

The top DPS in BQL generate 0 threat due to vampire stuff. If they didn't, they woulda ripped off you in a heartbeat.

[Terridon]

It's been done...

I think you forgot a source of this great raid that went with full tanks.
Personally I don't believe it.

Edit:
Of course talking about a progression raid.
Not some fully HC-geared raidtanks that want to show it's possible for a normal raid they overgear by far.

[Gestopft]

A few notes, from looking at RaidBots

For this tier as a whole (using spec score)
-Tanks own 5/6 of the top spots of top 100 25H parses
-Under All Parses for 25H, only Locks, Rogues, and Arc. Mages are competitive with 3 of the tank specs. ALL tank specs are performing better than Rets or ANY Hunter spec
-All Parses for 10H is similar, but Rogues fall out and only Locks and Arcane can compete with the 3 top tanks. Blood is stronger than all DPS Shaman and Hunters, but Prot Warriors are near the bottom
-Top 100 Parses for 10H show tanks in 4/6 of the top spots, with Prot Warriors down at 11th, still above Rets, WWs, DPS Druids, DPS Shaman, and all Hunters

That looks very disturbing for DPS. Let's break it down some.

In MSV 10H (top 100), tanks are:
-5/10 of the top spots on Stone Guard
-no top spots, and are below all but the "outlier" DPS specs on Feng and Gara'jal
-at the bottom on Spirit Kings and Elegon
-5/8 of the top spots in Will of the Emperor

In MSV 10H (All Parses), tanks are:
-At/near the bottom of Stone Guard, though Brewmasters do beat WWs
-At the bottom for Feng, Gara'jal, Spirit Kings, and Elegon
-5/8 of the top spots in Will of the Emperor

In MSV 25H (top 100), tanks are:
-5/12 of the top spots (3,5,9,11,12) on Stone Guard
-In the Middle on Feng, evenly distributed
-At the bottom on Gara'jal, Kings, and Ele
-Spread over Will, but in positions 3 and 7. Shockingly, all tanks are ahead of ALL Mages on this reading

In MSV 25H (All Parses) tanks are:
-At/near the bottom in all fights, except for 3/9 of the top spots in Will

In HoF (Generalizing all of the measurements used above for MSV):
-Tanks are at the bottom on Vizier, Blade Lord, and Garalon
-Tanks are doing reasonably well on Amber-Shaper, quite well on Empress and absolutely blowing EVERYBODY out of the water on Wind Lord

In ToES (Generalizing) tanks are:
-spread out in the top half on Protectors
-at or near the bottom of Tsulong and Lei Shi, and Sha of Fear.

Personal conclusion: single-target damage between tanks and DPS is reasonable.Tanks need a significant AoE nerf. Brewmasters especially need a trimming. Vengeance isn't necessarily the issue, it may more likely be AP scaling for tank AoE.

[Eldrad]

Yup, a very straight forward question. How can you be ok with vengeance? It gives tanks way too much AP and they are out dpsing alot of dps speccs, even on single target dps fights. Lets not forget fights, where it's all about the tanks and a few of their supports.

Blizz took away a dps' pride and gave it to the tanks. Now all dps do is make up numbers in the a raid unless there are massive dps buffs in the fight or you are playing one of the strong dps speccs, that also on only a few fights. As soon as there are a couple of adds involved, that's it, forget about beating the tanks in dps.

What is the point of vengeance? Blizz says it's there to provide undergeared tanks enough AP so they can hold aggro against geared dps in heroics. WHAT? Heroics are are obsolete. If a dps is outgearing a heroic, he/she, 1) doesn't belong there, 2) can easily "tank" a mob or two he/she has aggro on. The entire point of vengeance is utter nonsense.

Tanks were one of the most important part of raids, and now they are given way, way, WAY too much importance. It's all about the tanks right now who have a few people supporting them. I don't want to play a support anymore. As a dps I should be doing more dps then a tank because that's my job, TO DPS DOWN THE BOSS/ADDS not the fucking tanks' job.

Vengeance is should be removed from the game and if Blizz wants the tanks to generate more aggro against geared dps, just increase the threat generation from spells. Threat is a joke anyways so why the hell do we have vengeance undermining what the dps do best?

And all that tanks bring dps to down bosses faster etc. crap. PLEASE, bosses went down just fine before tanks started doing more dps then dps themselves.

The entire point of the trinity is, tanks soak damage, position the boss/adds, etc. DPS kill the add/boss and healers heal the raid. Why the hell are breaking away from a system that worked perfectly fine for 8 fucking just so you can give speccs far too much importance when they already were the most important part of the raid?

Seeing tanks topping meters and getting top ranks on WoL, beating dps my miles makes me sick.

I don't want to play a support anymore, I want my role and respect back.

I have a counter question. Who gives as shit?
SERIOUSLY, do you some how get your panties in a bind if you are beat by a tank on a little mod that tells you how much damage per second someone did or how much damage total they did in fight????
I don't get THAT!

I am in a dungeon or raid to succeed, have fun, and get gear. Not have my little magic numbers be higher than the player who is tanking the boss.

[Saegno]

My gear and my dps are fine and pretty amazing for the specc I play. Doesn't change the fact that tanks are out dpsing dps on half of the fights and it can be 100% in 5.2 cause pretty much every fight has alot of boss/adds involved.

Tanks are only beating DPS on very gimmicky fights. Other than that it's not the case at all and WoL even shows this to be true. Sure on Will out ranks are higher DPS than the rest of the raid, then again they don't even come close on Spirit Binder. If your DPS are not mouth breathers and it's not a gimmick fight(AoE, Tank ability, raid damage boost) the tank shouldn't be above anyone but healers.


Edit- More so, what's the big deal if they are? Tank DPS actually means something now and I like that it does.

[Sivick]

how are we ok with vengeance, in the fact that in order to do enough damage to hold threat we need to be beat upon ferociously? We should go back to the old system where my spells and attacks were so powerful on their own to hold threat and i would smack around little bitch dpsers and laugh like a maniac while i did it because there was nothing they could do to hurt me while i murdered them. FYI this happened around the time of Ulduar and TOC. Good times....

trust me, vengeance is a dps'ers best friend.