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  1. #21
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    7.5% Expertise has a little more meaning than let's say 6%, or 8%, or 10%, for simple reasons.

    1* It allows you to not get dodged anymore, but your attacks will still have 7.5% chance to be parried on a lvl-93 mob.

    While off-tanking, thus, you can simply go behind the boss and hit him from there, and prevent him from parrying any of your attacks even though you only have 7.5% expertise. This is very helpful on many fights (if you can't/don't want to go for the hard cap), since there's a lot of boss swapping going on.
    It allows you to build up Rage in a reliable way, before you have to taunt off the boss, and also prevent any DPS loss you might have due to Parries (very roughly ~7.5%), even though you are not hard-capped.

    2* On Ultraxion/Spine tendon type fights (agreed there aren't that many out there, but still) there's simply no point in going for a hard expertise cap, since those mobs simply can't parry attacks.

    3* Agreed that since MoP this ''magic number'' has lost a bit of its charm (it was even 6.5% before, as a reminder), since in previous expansions it used to remove both all your dodged attacks and some of your parried ones, and the Hard cap only allowed to removed the rest of your parried ones.
    But even so, for the reasons stated above, there's still a lot of meaning to ''soft cap'' at 7.5% expertise, if for some reasons you can't go for the hard cap -- be it for your gear lvl, the fight mechanics, your personal preference/game style, etc...

    All in all, in my humble opinion (as there's no maths to back this...), yes, it doesn't have the same magic it used to have, but there's nonetheless still a lot of sense to go for that soft cap in some few situations.

  2. #22
    There's no "Ultraxion/Spine" in MoP currently.

    So yeah, the only reason to cap at 7.5% is "while off-tanking, your Expertise above 7.5% is not interesting". But while off-tanking, no other tank stat is interesting, so this is not a really valid argument.
    It makes a little more sense to stop stacking Expertise at 7.5% rather thant 7% or 8%, but just a little. I'll understand more easily that someone decided to have hardcap expertise against lvl92 mobs since it can be useful against Mel'jarak/Empress so that non of your Revenge are parried/dodged.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 07:42 PM ----------

    Btw, if you're running Challenge mode in dungeon, I'm not sure you'll want any cap. Hit/Exp > Mastery/Parry/Dodge is not the best priority to minimize input damages so unless you're going for realm/region/world records, it may be dangerous to stack Hit/Exp at the expense of other stats.

  3. #23
    The Patient Gruxa's Avatar
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    I think the only reason why there still is an extra 7,5 % parry on boss lvl mobs is for the melee stand behind the boss. (Since they did a revamp since mop)... Makes me wonder why they didn't give tanks some kind of buff to negate the whole expertise debate.

    I mean it just doesn't "sound" appealing when a stat loses half it's value (since dodge gets capped).. and since I believe the extra parry is only for sentimental (or practical) reasons for melee dps not to scatter around the boss...

    Altough such buff would probably be overpower outside the raids. (perhaps make it only against non-player characters with a ?? lvl eg.)
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurisaz View Post
    I mean it just doesn't "sound" appealing when a stat loses half it's value (since dodge gets capped)..
    It doesn't lose half its value.
    Again, Expertise does not work at MoP the same way it worked during Cataclysm.
    Last edited by Senen; 2013-01-13 at 10:23 PM.

  5. #25
    The Patient Gruxa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    It doesn't lose half its value.
    Again, Expertise does not work at MoP the same way it worked during Cataclysm.
    Yep, you're right. damn it! i just reread the thing on wowwiki but i guess it was still confusing (reading it now on wowpedia, they do it better^^)
    made by Shyama

  6. #26
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    Under normal conditions (Normal raids, some of the heroic fights) going for hit 7,5% and exp 15% caps is best. Its THE jack off all trades build, suitable for every fight. I myself find getting more than enough rage for Shield Block, so i can use the couple seconds waiting for SB cd to pop a SBar in there. Even in superheavy melee fight hit/exp cap is better, like Shekzeer heroic. Cause here you pretty much can spam Revenge every GCD (add phase) and keep those 1,2 million Shield Barriers up.

    I cant really see a fight where 7,5hit 15%exp isnt best option to go? Maybe in low ilvls you shouldnt gimp your Stamina for it.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    I cant really see a fight where 7,5hit 15%exp isnt best option to go? Maybe in low ilvls you shouldnt gimp your Stamina for it.
    Depends on how you define "the best option".
    To maximize EH: Stamina>*
    To minimize incoming damages: Depends on your playstyle and on the fight, but usually Mastery/Parry/Dodge > Hit/Exp
    Even for maximizing the rage generation, I think Hit/Exp are not always the best option (not sure, I've seen the calculations at the beginning of the expansion but I can't recall exactly.)

    Hit/Exp is great because your know you will have at least 1.5 SS and 1 Revenge during each 9 second interval, without any rng. Which means you're pretty sure to be able to use SB whenever it's available.
    Basically, it's good for the same reason cap block was so good during Cataclysm: even with a terrible rng you won't die.

  8. #28
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    There's no "Ultraxion/Spine" in MoP currently.

    So yeah, the only reason to cap at 7.5% is "while off-tanking, your Expertise above 7.5% is not interesting". But while off-tanking, no other tank stat is interesting, so this is not a really valid argument.
    Why does it have to be interesting while off-tanking ? Lets not mess things up. The question is : does the 7.5 Expertise cap have any meaning at all in MoP, not what are the alternative to spend those 2549 extra rating you'll be left with.

    But even to that, the answer is really simple : Mastery. Spend those points in Mastery to boost your Enrage uptime and mitigation while you're tanking. Don't forget that, in most cases, Mastery still remains our best damage mitigation stat when compared to any of our other stats (Armor aside).

    The only reason why people that aren't stacking it presently don't, and prefer Expertise instead, is to have more control over Rage flow and a higher DPS output, not that Mastery is somehow ''bad'', or even worse than Hit and Expertise.

    As sims will tell (including Theck's) Mastery/Hit/Expertise are all very close when it come to Rage generation + Mitigation. It all depends on what you favor most -- more passive mitigation (Mastery > Dodge/Parry), or a better active mitigation (Hit/Exp).

    Anyways, no point in getting too deep into the Mastery discussion here -- my point being, if you want an alternative to those 2549 Expertise, Mastery is a very valid choice, and in many cases will turn out to be even better than that extra Expertise.

    Note that I'm absolutely not saying it's not worthed to go for that Expertise hard cap, as I myself have it. In fact right now on T14, if you can reach it without sacrificing too much, it's highly recommended for the majority of the current content, and available end game gear (again no need to discuss the why here, as it has already been discussed many times in the pasted)

    All I'm really saying is even so, the Expertise ''soft'' cap still have meaning in MoP, for the reasons I gave above.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 04:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    Btw, if you're running Challenge mode in dungeon, I'm not sure you'll want any cap. Hit/Exp > Mastery/Parry/Dodge is not the best priority to minimize input damages so unless you're going for realm/region/world records, it may be dangerous to stack Hit/Exp at the expense of other stats.
    I've been able to clear all 9 gold CM's with my Expertise hard cap, without any trouble whatsoever. There are several reasons to that :

    1* Aside from trying to keep things stunned as long as possible, managing a pack of mobs or a boss in CM isn't that different when it comes to your active mitigation (in fact, it's virtually the same). This means, there's absolutely no reason why your stat priority should change -- things hit the same way as they hit in your average raid.
    E.g.: reforging to Dodge/Parry for CM's is truly as horrible as reforging for those same stats in your average raid.
    The only change you may bring to it is, to actually try to increase your DPS by increasing Str and Crit, while remaining Hit/Exp capped, and as long as you're not dying that is (it's even wise to swap gear for a particular pack or boss depending on how hard they hit).

    2* Stacking other stats as Port is less valuable as they are all affected by the ilvl nerf -- but, your Hit/Exp caps aren't. This is in many ways a huge stat gain, if you decide to actually keep your caps, survivability-wise AND DPS-wise.
    Last edited by L Kebess; 2013-01-14 at 04:02 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    But even to that, the answer is really simple : Mastery. Spend those points in Mastery to boost your Enrage uptime and mitigation while you're tanking. Don't forget that, in most cases, Mastery still remains our best damage mitigation stat when compared to any of our other stats (Armor aside).

    The only reason why people that aren't stacking it presently don't, and prefer Expertise instead, is to have more control over Rage flow and a higher DPS output, not that Mastery is somehow ''bad'', or even worse than Hit and Expertise.
    Then, they have no reason to treat 7.5% Expertise as a magical number, it has nothing different with 7% or 9% except for the "it gives less dps while offtanking".

    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    1* Aside from trying to keep things stunned as long as possible, managing a pack of mobs or a boss in CM isn't that different when it comes to your active mitigation (in fact, it's virtually the same). This means, there's absolutely no reason why your stat priority should change -- things hit the same way as they hit in your average raid.
    The only change you may bring to it is, to actually try to increase your DPS by increasing Str and Crit, as long as you're not dying that is (it's even wise to swap gear for a particular pack or boss depending on how hard they hit).
    E.g.: reforging to Dodge/Parry for CM's is truly as horrible as reforging for those same stats in your average raid.
    Mastery/Parry/Dodge > Hit/Expertise is better than Hit/Expertise > Mastery > Parry/Dodge if you want to minimize incoming damages. You want to be Hit/Exp capped in raid because the fights are long and you don't want to die because of stupid rng giving you no rage for 20 seconds. Fights in challenge modes are really quick but incoming damages are very high, so it makes sense to choose another optimization.
    Note that I didn't say you can't go for Hit/Expertise > Mastery > Parry/Dodge, and it makes a lot of sense since challenge modes are about "killing things as quickly as possible". I just said that you may want to try another optimization.

    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    2* Stacking other stats as Port is less valuable as they are all affected by the ilvl nerf -- but, your Hit/Exp caps aren't. This is in many ways a huge stat gain, if you decide to actually keep your caps, survivability-wise AND DPS-wise.
    Are you sure of that? I read that your other stats get nerfed harder to compensate each point of hit/exp that should be removed by the ilvl nerf.
    Never tried, though, I should check. (Didn't pay much attention as I mainly dps in challenge mode.)

  10. #30
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    Mastery/Parry/Dodge > Hit/Expertise is better than Hit/Expertise > Mastery > Parry/Dodge if you want to minimize incoming damages. You want to be Hit/Exp capped in raid because the fights are long and you don't want to die because of stupid rng giving you no rage for 20 seconds. Fights in challenge modes are really quick but incoming damages are very high, so it makes sense to choose another optimization.
    Note that I didn't say you can't go for Hit/Expertise > Mastery > Parry/Dodge, and it makes a lot of sense since challenge modes are about "killing things as quickly as possible". I just said that you may want to try another optimization.

    Are you sure of that? I read that your other stats get nerfed harder to compensate each point of hit/exp that should be removed by the ilvl nerf.
    Never tried, though, I should check. (Didn't pay much attention as I mainly dps in challenge mode.)
    Are you saying because individual fights are longer in a raid, not being capped somehow will make you have more of those bad RNG ? How does CM's shorter individual fights help to prevent a bad RNG ? I'm using the word ''individual'' to emphasize on the fact that it's not because each single fight last shorter that in the end you'll be fighting less.
    E.g.: in CM's you might have 6 ''individual'' fights in 6 min, while in a raid you might only fight one single boss in that amount of time. In the end though, you still fought 6 min in both situations, so I fail to understand how does this favor CM, and prevent it from bad RNG.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 05:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    Then, they have no reason to treat 7.5% Expertise as a magical number, it has nothing different with 7% or 9% except for the "it gives less dps while offtanking".
    Even though the boss wouldn't be able to parry you (because you're in his back) at 6/7%, you'll still have 0.5/1.5% chance to be dodged. At 7.5% you'll be dodge capped, hence the term ''soft cap''. At 9% you'll have 1.5% over that soft cap, which wouldn't help you in anyway in this particular situation (since you're behind the boss).
    Last edited by L Kebess; 2013-01-14 at 04:34 AM.

  11. #31
    There's only two or three dangerous pull that might kill you during Challenge mode, each of them implying many enemies so a Revenge spamming and you mainly have to survive the 20 first seconds (for which you already have rage by Charge and Battle Shout).

    Edit: I know that "Revenge spamming" may sound like "you want to be Hit/Exp capped to get more rage". I meant that even with a terrible rng, you'll eventually get enough rage to survive, so you don't worry about "omg, I may have a no-rage land" and you can decide to go for the optimization that provides the best damage reduction.

    But again, I don't say that every warrior should run CM with Mastery/Parry/Dodge > Hit/Exp. I just say some may want to try if their healers fail to keep them alive.
    Last edited by Senen; 2013-01-14 at 04:45 AM.

  12. #32
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    There's only two or three dangerous pull that might kill you during Challenge mode, each of them implying many enemies so a Revenge spamming and you mainly have to survive the 20 first seconds (for which you already have rage by Charge and Battle Shout).

    Edit: I know that "Revenge spamming" may sound like "you want to be Hit/Exp capped to get more rage". I meant that even with a terrible rng, you'll eventually get enough rage to survive, so you don't worry about "omg, I may have a no-rage land" and you can decide to go for the optimization that provides the best damage reduction.

    But again, I don't say that every warrior should run CM with Mastery/Parry/Dodge > Hit/Exp. I just say some may want to try if their healers fail to keep them alive.
    I'm a bit confused about what you're saying. In some way, you do agree that you need a lot of Rage even in CMs, and the more you have the better, and that Revenge spamming is good yo have a lot of that Rage.
    But you're also saying even though you need a lot of Rage, it's OK to have bad RNG's (because you're not Hit/Exp capped), because you'll somehow have ''enough'' Rage, meaning ''more'' Rage than you can spend even with HS/Cleave in your rotation.

    From a tanking perspective, I can assure you that this is simply not accurate. A bad RNG in CM is just as dangerous as in any other dangerous environment, raid or not. You seem to forget that there's a ''limit'' to your Revenge spamming -- you can only Revenge once per GCD. So again I fail to understand how missing 2/3 out of 4 Revenge in a row, wouldn't be just as dangerous on a CM pack.
    (most packs can simply OS you if you haven't any sort of shield on you, not just 2 or 3 as you seem to think -- unless you're not aiming for gold, and take the time to use CCs, of course).

    In fact to be honest, I feel immensely more stressed in most CM packs when for some reason I'm being Rage starved. This is how intense things can get in there from a tanking perspective. I strongly recommend you try it out once in a while as Prot to experience what I mean.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 06:33 AM ----------

    EDIT :
    About the ''limit'' of Revenge spamming part, I forgot to add that because you can only Revenge once per GCD, having more Revenge procs thanks to those 1/2% more avoidance you might get from the priority you're suggesting, will simply not make the slightest difference or even have any impact at all, whatsoever...
    Simply because you'll always have enough mobs hitting you to allow a Revenge spamming without those extra 1/2% avoidance you might get with your priority.

    And if you don't have enough mobs hitting you to yield enough procs, it's certainly not that minor avoidance increase that is going to change anything.

  13. #33
    The Patient Gruxa's Avatar
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    I think we can all agree here that it's alla matter of personal preference in the end :P
    made by Shyama

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    I'm a bit confused about what you're saying. In some way, you do agree that you need a lot of Rage even in CMs, and the more you have the better, and that Revenge spamming is good yo have a lot of that Rage.
    But you're also saying even though you need a lot of Rage, it's OK to have bad RNG's (because you're not Hit/Exp capped), because you'll somehow have ''enough'' Rage, meaning ''more'' Rage than you can spend even with HS/Cleave in your rotation.
    I'm saying you may want to maximize you EH not your Rage. You may only die at the beginning of each pack and by then you already have rage by Charge/Battle shout and there's a cd rotation to keep you alive. Plus, having three miss in a row (less than 1% chance even against a lvl 93) when you're spamming Revenge means you won't get rage for 4.5 seconds, less than the duration of SB. Against a raid boss it means you won't have rage for ~15s.

    Again, I'm not saying "go for this optimization!", just that CM is a different context than raid in which going for the optimization which minimizes incoming damages can make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    I strongly recommend you try it out once in a while as Prot to experience what I mean.
    I've already tank'd a few times in CM. I'm just not tanking in my current group since we already have a tank.
    I've even tried to solo some CM to see how far I can get. But it's a different thing that may require different optimization.

    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    (most packs can simply OS you if you haven't any sort of shield on you, not just 2 or 3 as you seem to think -- unless you're not aiming for gold, and take the time to use CCs, of course).
    We're doing gold run, he have very few mass cc (War tank, RSham, Hunter, Destrulock and me as Fury warrior). I don't take Shockwave and the tanks switch between Shockwave and Bladestorm depending on the dungeons. It's really rare than the tank dies. If anything, the warlock get used to put his soulstone on me so that I can instantly brez.

  15. #35
    About the magic number, my point is that 7.5% don't have enough bearing to switch the stat weight. I mean, off-tanking or Sinestra has enough weigth to say exp > mastery, and after 7.5%, mastery > exp? (well, Sinestra will need a reforge, at least on progress)

    I would say cap it, and if you don't want to, just reach whatever you feel comfortable with. I feel we are overextending the topic, but just to clarify.

    PD: The only true dangerous packs I remember in CMs where stunning/caster ones (mogu'shan and scarlet). And that double pack in the third boss on Siege, where you hold the packs a few second while they are bombed. So I would say stamina it's a better safeguard there, but I as you just cleared it without reforging, don't know if I would felt a difference.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-01-14 at 06:02 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    About the magic number, my point is that 7.5% don't have enough bearing to switch the stat weight.
    My point, exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    PD: The only true dangerous packs I remember in CMs where stunning/caster ones (mogu'shan and scarlet). And that double pack in the third boss on Siege, where you hold the packs a few second while they are bombed.
    Agreed for Mogu'shan and Scarlets, that was the packs I had in mind (also first room of Shado-pan Monastry.)
    However, didn't have any trouble with the third boss on Siege, we put both tank and healer under the bubble, ask the dps to not deal any damage to the adds (so that the tank doesn't have to run after them and can wait under the bubble) and the dps just spam the bombs (hitting boss the boss and the adds).

  17. #37
    Mechagnome L Kebess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    About the magic number, my point is that 7.5% don't have enough bearing to switch the stat weight. I mean, off-tanking or Sinestra has enough weigth to say exp > mastery, and after 7.5%, mastery > exp? (well, Sinestra will need a reforge, at least on progress)

    I would say cap it, and if you don't want to, just reach whatever you feel comfortable with. I feel we are overextending the topic, but just to clarify.
    ''Enough'' can be very subjective. In this case, I think it is. I personally find the fact that this 7.5% Exp can allow you to completely remove avoided attacks while off-tanking is more than ''enough'' to justify its somewhat special position. This can only be done in an optimal way at exactly this 7.5% Expertise -- less than that will still yield avoided attacks, and anything over it is simply a waste from an off-tank's perspective. It's really as simple as that.

    As Thuri was saying, in the end, it's more a matter of personal opinion than anything else. So sadly I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

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