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  1. #61
    Looks like a pretty solid addon, thanks for the recommendation.

    Let our enemies know that havoc calls and that with its song comes their end.
    -
    March 25th, 2008; you may clip our wings, but we will never forget what it was like to fly.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by rewn View Post
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5966976836

    A thread about the add-on that has been going since November, with the main post being highly rated. I seriously doubt that a thread about an add-on that "could get you banned" could still be going 3 months later, especially with the big "come and see me Blizzard" highly rated post that it is. No doubt Blizzard has seen the thread, seen the add-on and have said nothing about it.

    As said previously by several people, Blizzard have never said once that you can actually get banned for using such add-ons. In fact, Blizzard themselves said they broke the other major PvP add-on simply because it wasn't "in the spirit of the game", not because it was against the ToS.

    Also relevant :-

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...20?page=12#231

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    You've made the assumption that all those things were accomplished expressly so that you could queue into battlegrounds as an organized group against disorganized opponents? That assumption is mistaken. If you want organized PvP against organized opponents, as you claim, that experience is readily available.

    No one's wrist was slapped. There have been no suspensions over this issue. We're just making our stance on the subject clear, so that there's no room for misunderstanding.
    All of his posts are relevant. It looks like it is something they're keeping an eye on, and not something they're happy with, but tolerate. Which is why you never seen Blizzard endorse an addon like AV enabler. If Blizzard would be opposed to it, you'd see first the addon being broken like what happened with AVR. Blizzard said there that they made a simple mechanism to make sure the addon would get broken and would "take additional steps if that wasn't good enough" because it was against the spirit of the game. Blizzard also pointed out to alternatives to premades.

    Because if you use this addon it means other players are getting more chance to play with bots, and also an opposing team who has the average percentage of bots and unorganized players (you can assume the OQ players are average or above) which ruins the game for all these parties more than it used to before OQ. Worse, the undergeared player will get kicked from the OQ group ("we won't boost you").

    So all I can say is, enjoy your ivory tower while it lasts.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 07:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Delznope View Post
    [...]

    I'm actually doing bg's for fun again and I love it.
    Yes, because you're a lolkid who doesn't like competitive play, wants to faceroll instead. Here's why.

    I've got something like 70+ games and 2 losses. When before getting the addon
    Completely, 100% supports my point:

    More than 70 games.
    More than 68 wins.
    2 losses.

    A win/loss ratio of more than 97%.

    Wanna know what the win/ratio of a normal, competitive game is? Roughly 50% (slightly higher for horde than alliance, but not by much).

    I had to do 5 or more randoms just to get my daily win.
    So, before using this addon you had a 20% chance to win. The average player has a 50% chance to get their daily win. This proves, before using the addon, you weren't able to pull your weight because the opposing faction is just as likely to have bots, baddies, etc when you're not using the addon.

    So when you are using OQ, realize you not playing with bots but are boosting some baddies. It is understandable people, and also bad players, like an addon like this, but it will only ruin the game for the people who don't use it and those who are undergeared. It'll make PvP even more an ivory tower than it already is with the massive grind behind it.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    All of his posts are relevant. It looks like it is something they're keeping an eye on, and not something they're happy with, but tolerate. Which is why you never seen Blizzard endorse an addon like AV enabler. If Blizzard would be opposed to it, you'd see first the addon being broken like what happened with AVR. Blizzard said there that they made a simple mechanism to make sure the addon would get broken and would "take additional steps if that wasn't good enough" because it was against the spirit of the game. Blizzard also pointed out to alternatives to premades.

    Because if you use this addon it means other players are getting more chance to play with bots, and also an opposing team who has the average percentage of bots and unorganized players (you can assume the OQ players are average or above) which ruins the game for all these parties more than it used to before OQ. Worse, the undergeared player will get kicked from the OQ group ("we won't boost you").

    So all I can say is, enjoy your ivory tower while it lasts.[COLOR="red"]
    I never said any other posts weren't relevant. And I doubt the add-on will get broken. The add-on itself isn't enabling people to fill multiple groups and queue them like AvEnabler was which is what people don't seem to understand. This add-on allows you to organize multiple groups of people, that's it. If you want to do random BG's, you can still only queue with a maximum of 5, even with the add-on. The leaders of those groups must still coordinate with each other (through vent or other communication means) and queue at the same time if they hope to get into the same BG which is the actual issue here, not the add-on. The add-on is just giving people a more accessible in-game GUI for creating, finding and organize groups cross-realm.

    Oh and P.S, I don't PvP (which you can easily check if you look at the armoury in my sig). I just don't care much for people spreading misinformation.
    Last edited by rewn; 2013-01-17 at 04:10 PM.

  4. #64
    To Lola

    I wasn't able to pull my weight before the addon? Where do you get this logic? I'd say I pulled more than my weight before the addon considering my team was filled with botters just like the other team no doubt. Also, I play a rogue, It's not quite faceroll.

    I can see you're angry that your opinion has been shot down time after time in this thread. You've resorted to calling people bad, lolkid and faceroller out of anger. Calm down. Not all of us have a place in adult conversation.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by rewn View Post
    I never said any other posts weren't relevant. And I doubt the add-on will get broken. The add-on itself isn't enabling people to fill multiple groups and queue them like AvEnabler was which is what people don't seem to understand. This add-on allows you to organize multiple groups of people, that's it. If you want to do random BG's, you can still only queue with a maximum of 5, even with the add-on. The leaders of those groups must still coordinate with each other (through vent or other communication means) and queue at the same time if they hope to get into the same BG which is the actual issue here, not the add-on. The add-on is just giving people a more accessible in-game GUI for creating, finding and organize groups cross-realm.

    Oh and P.S, I don't PvP (which you can easily check if you look at the armoury in my sig). I just don't care much for people spreading misinformation.
    Untrue. Blizzard UI doesn't allow you to queue for random BG with more than 5 people. An addon must be used for that. Yes, AV enabler and Oqueue allow you to queue with 5, but they also allow you to queue with more than 5 which I argued before is against the spirit of the game (Blizzard agrees) and circumventing game mechanic (Blizzard doesn't agree).

    Quote Originally Posted by Delznope View Post
    I wasn't able to pull my weight before the addon? Where do you get this logic?
    With simple logic and math as you can see above.

    Before: win ratio of 20%.
    Average win rating of horde and alliance player: 50%.
    After: win ratio of 97%.

    Now, you can argue the addon is successful. I fully agree with you on that one, Delznope. However without the addon an average player would still have a 50% win/loss rating. You didn't even come close to that. Not even half of that!
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    With simple logic and math as you can see above.

    Before: win ratio of 20%.
    Average win rating of horde and alliance player: 50%.
    After: win ratio of 97%.

    Now, you can argue the addon is successful. I fully agree with you on that one, Delznope. However without the addon an average player would still have a 50% win/loss rating. You didn't even come close to that. Not even half of that!
    You mean with false logic. You're assuming much when you say horde and alliance each win and lose 50 percent of their bg's. Just because one person got unlucky and was put into 4 losing games in a row, don't continue to assume that the losses were that persons fault and not the other 9 undergeared or botting players that ran up against a premade.

    You further assume that if everyone used the addon win loss would be 50 percent. Lol. Well if botters used the addon they would be banned shortly after and unable to use the addon. Therefore it would be real players vs botters resulting in a ratio far from 1/1.

    You can continue to try and drag me through the mud by calling me a faceroller who doesn't like a fair game, but the truth of the matter is I'm alerting just as many alliance players to this addon as I am horde. My goal would be to never have to face a botting player ever again, not just never to be grouped with one.

  7. #67
    Has anyone gotten this thing to work on Horde US? I've clicked "find mesh" about 200 times in the last 2 days and it worked 1 time randomly yesterday. Rest of the time nothing comes up.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Untrue. Blizzard UI doesn't allow you to queue for random BG with more than 5 people. An addon must be used for that. Yes, AV enabler and Oqueue allow you to queue with 5, but they also allow you to queue with more than 5 which I argued before is against the spirit of the game (Blizzard agrees) and circumventing game mechanic (Blizzard doesn't agree).
    From what I can see and gather, it doesn't. It acts exactly as I described. If you try to queue as a group larger than 5 for a BG, it puts you into different groups of 5 then gives each "group leader" a button to spam at the same time to try and get into the same BG as described here :-

    >Joining with 6 or more people
    Follow these instructions: http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l.../oq_guide1.png
    Since patch 5.1 the premade leader can nolonger queue both groups simultaniously.
    It now requires the interaction of both group leaders: Either communicate through mic and count down or ...
    "the group leaders spam click the center of their screen... and when the oQ leader hits 'Join as Group', a large button for each group leader will be presented in the middle of the screen... which will catch their next spam-click" quote by Tiny
    It simply allows you easier group making. It doesn't allow people to queue in groups of more than 5 for random BG's and just helps them "abuse" the queue system, which you can do without the add-on. Again, add-on isn't the problem here, it's the queuing system.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Delznope View Post
    You mean with false logic. You're assuming much when you say horde and alliance each win and lose 50 percent of their bg's.
    No, I am not assuming much. It is a proven statistic which has been researched by MMOC and confirmed by Blizzard.

    Just because one person got unlucky and was put into 4 losing games in a row, don't continue to assume that the losses were that persons fault and not the other 9 undergeared or botting players that ran up against a premade.
    Wait, now it is suddenly unlucky? Previously you said firmly your statistic on wins/loss was 5 fights till you got your daily win (which is 1 out of 5 which is 20%). You know "unlucky" is often an analogy excuse to "I'm not bad, I was just unlucky there" because person cannot admit they're bad, right?

    You further assume that if everyone used the addon win loss would be 50 percent. Lol.
    No, I said without the addon people are getting 50/50. The average player. You got much lower.

    Well if botters used the addon they would be banned shortly after and unable to use the addon. Therefore it would be real players vs botters resulting in a ratio far from 1/1.
    Botters are getting away right now with anything. You're also not accounting for the opposite team. You run with premade so every player you run with is one potential bot less. The enemy still has the same potential except every once in a while you'll run against an enemy premade. But the average amount of botter stays the same! That's why your win % is so high.

    You can continue to try and drag me through the mud by calling me a faceroller who doesn't like a fair game, but the truth of the matter is I'm alerting just as many alliance players to this addon as I am horde.
    But I am not denying this addon isn't useful; on the contrary. We agree on that.

    I only argued 3 things in this thread: 1) that before using this addon you were below average, while after you are above average. Both by large margin. All this backed up by your own statistics. This underlines a bad player is getting big benefit from an addon like this.
    2) I suggested this addon would be illegal (I was wrong on that).
    3) I suggested the addon isn't a trend Blizzard wants to see in terms of 5+ queuing together. Your own quote of daxx (+ his other posts there) as well as the above post which apparently says 5.1 banned 5+ queuing are all supporting this argument.

    My goal would be to never have to face a botting player ever again, not just never to be grouped with one.
    That happens only if queued against another premade group (but as I said amount of bots remains same on both teams, while chance you got bots is less, which means chance you win rises; simple). Rated BG is a great place where you will not find bots. The only thing which would remove more bots from random BGs is Blizzard equiping the banhammer.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  10. #70
    Guys i downloaded this but says i need to set my REALID... even thought ive logged into my wow account?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by snookiee View Post
    Has anyone gotten this thing to work on Horde US? I've clicked "find mesh" about 200 times in the last 2 days and it worked 1 time randomly yesterday. Rest of the time nothing comes up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashenz View Post
    Guys i downloaded this but says i need to set my REALID... even thought ive logged into my wow account?
    Submit your b-tag. or set it up via the battle.net site.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 09:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    No, I am not assuming much. It is a proven statistic which has been researched by MMOC and confirmed by Blizzard.
    Link it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Wait, now it is suddenly unlucky? Previously you said firmly your statistic on wins/loss was 5 fights till you got your daily win (which is 1 out of 5 which is 20%). You know "unlucky" is often an analogy excuse to "I'm not bad, I was just unlucky there" because person cannot admit they're bad, right?
    You seriously think it took exactly 5 bgs every single day? Get your head out of your ass and stop quoting general terminology.

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    No, I said without the addon people are getting 50/50. The average player. You got much lower.
    1700 bg's played. 1200 wins. Not bragging, just stating.

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Botters are getting away right now with anything. You're also not accounting for the opposite team. You run with premade so every player you run with is one potential bot less. The enemy still has the same potential except every once in a while you'll run against an enemy premade. But the average amount of botter stays the same! That's why your win % is so high.
    The average number of botters stay the same... but not in games where OQ is used.


    You came into this thread saying it this addon was against TOS. Yet provided no link to confirm. You state horde and alliance have the same amount of win percentage. Can you provide proof of that? Or can we expect you to continue to argue just for the sake of argument?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delznope View Post
    Submit your b-tag. or set it up via the battle.net site.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 09:47 PM ----------



    Link it.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...p-of-the-Month

    MMO-champ reseach, but I don't recall it being confirmed by Blizzard at all.

  13. #73
    Here's one source on that ratio http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...p-of-the-Month

    And no, the average number of botters in the BGs you are in goes down on your side ONLY. On opponent side it stays the same, and on your side in general it stays same, too. The chance someone meets bots while against you is lower when they get queeud against premade.

    Anyway, it seems like you discounted your own win/loss ratio, to make make the effect of the addon look bigger than it actually was.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 11:10 PM ----------

    Here's what Bashiok has to say about oQueue

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Quote:

    if you break it down, what does a full oQueue premade bring to the table that is unfair?
    I'll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

    Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

    The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

    The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

    Addons aren't really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.
    http://wow.joystiq.com/tag/rated-battlegrounds/

    Conclusion from this: contrary to what you say addons like this drive players away and therefore increase the amount of bots and Blizzard aren't happy about addons like these it really is that simple.
    Last edited by lolalola; 2013-01-17 at 10:13 PM.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Here's one source on that ratio http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...p-of-the-Month

    And no, the average number of botters in the BGs you are in goes down on your side ONLY. On opponent side it stays the same, and on your side in general it stays same, too. The chance someone meets bots while against you is lower when they get queeud against premade.

    Anyway, it seems like you discounted your own win/loss ratio, to make make the effect of the addon look bigger than it actually was.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 11:10 PM ----------

    Here's what Bashiok has to say about oQueue

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment


    I'll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

    Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

    The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

    The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

    Addons aren't really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.
    http://wow.joystiq.com/tag/rated-battlegrounds/

    Conclusion from this: contrary to what you say addons like this drive players away and therefore increase the amount of bots and Blizzard aren't happy about addons like these it really is that simple.
    A better conclusion is: Blizzard don't like the concept of people abusing their queue system to queue at the exact same time to almost guarantee entry into the exact same BG's so premades can run about in random BG's. Instead of tackling the source (their queue system), they instead aimed their wrath at the add-ons enabling the auto queues. So why is OQueue still around? Because they can't do anything to it. As tiny stated on the forums multiple times

    i am not offering anything that is not already there, except the mesh ... which has nothing to do with bgs.

    QQ more. me and my 40 friends will be waiting for you in AV... if you ever play it
    All he has done is create an in-game GUI which allows players to better organize themselves. Players can still "cheat the queue" even without the add-on, OQueue just enables them to do it more effectively. There is no automation involved. It requires all group leaders involved to queue manually, just as are able to without OQueue. It's not against ToS.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Here's one source on that ratio http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...p-of-the-Month

    And no, the average number of botters in the BGs you are in goes down on your side ONLY. On opponent side it stays the same, and on your side in general it stays same, too. The chance someone meets bots while against you is lower when they get queeud against premade.

    Anyway, it seems like you discounted your own win/loss ratio, to make make the effect of the addon look bigger than it actually was.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 11:10 PM ----------

    Here's what Bashiok has to say about oQueue

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment


    I'll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

    Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

    The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

    The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

    Addons aren't really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.
    http://wow.joystiq.com/tag/rated-battlegrounds/

    Conclusion from this: contrary to what you say addons like this drive players away and therefore increase the amount of bots and Blizzard aren't happy about addons like these it really is that simple.
    So nowhere in there does it say its against TOS. Why do you keep linking it? You think I or anyone else gives a shit about what this guy thinks the SPIRIT OF THE GAME should be? I think my opinion matters more than his. I don't think it's in the spirit of the game to have botters who storm the middle of eots when the flag isn't there and then wait until it spawns just to not pick it up. I think see'ing level 85's glitching through the air in pandaria farming nodes is not in the spirit of the game. Yet the same ones have been glitching around since week one of this expansion.

    Yet this thread is not about my disgust in the flaws of the game. It's about a solution. If every non botter used this addon and q'd with 9 or 10 people. The result would be real players vs real players and botters versus botters.

    SO if you're fed up with having bots on your team... whether you're alliance or horde... use this addon.

    Gotta go now. Doing 35 man IOC's
    Last edited by Delznope; 2013-01-17 at 10:49 PM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Alastaircrawly View Post
    Like I said before blizzard policy changes weekly it seems
    Take anything Blizzard says with a grain of salt.

  17. #77
    Sounds like QQ Premades/Free Honor Premades... I wonder if FHP are still going?

    Back in Cata they deliberately didn't use addons, it was just "321 queue now... hold your queues... hold your queues...".

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 06:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    With simple logic and math as you can see above.

    Before: win ratio of 20%.
    Average win rating of horde and alliance player: 50%.
    After: win ratio of 97%.

    Now, you can argue the addon is successful. I fully agree with you on that one, Delznope. However without the addon an average player would still have a 50% win/loss rating. You didn't even come close to that. Not even half of that!
    While it is true that on average Horde and Alliance win rates are about 50/50, that doesn't mean there aren't people out there with 20/80 or so. And it's not necessarily their fault. There's such a thing as variance from a mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  18. #78
    Guys just a quit bit of help if possible? Says i have loads of friend requests yet i cant see them even on the wish list / friends list i have?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 10:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashenz View Post
    Guys just a quit bit of help if possible? Says i have loads of friend requests yet i cant see them even on the wish list / friends list i have?
    Also downloaded the updated version this morning and i have no listings of games for EU?

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post

    Conclusion from this: contrary to what you say addons like this drive players away and therefore increase the amount of bots and Blizzard aren't happy about addons like these it really is that simple.
    I don't know about you but I am driven away by the ridiculous amounts of bots I gotta play with.
    I never minded facing a premade in the past. It didn't happen nearly as often to seriously piss me off.

    The bots on the other hand... they are there with me, screwing up my games every time. Every. Single. Time.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Xzan View Post
    I don't know about you but I am driven away by the ridiculous amounts of bots I gotta play with.
    I never minded facing a premade in the past. It didn't happen nearly as often to seriously piss me off.

    The bots on the other hand... they are there with me, screwing up my games every time. Every. Single. Time.
    This addon doesn't influence the amount of bots. It only influences the amount of bots in your team due to your premade. It is like see no evil, hear no evil. If my team has no bots, there are not bots in game. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    If people can do low rating arena to get CP cap, with the bottom not even everyone having PvP gear, then I don't see why you cannot have rated BGs in premades. Blizzard has been working hard to make rated BG a viable way of PvP.

    Bots are a separate issue. That's also something you can read from those Blizzard posts.

    And if I do a casual game of BG there are 2 things I don't wanna see: neither bots nor premade, on either team! A 5-man premade already has severe influence, and that's the limit. I don't see why people would cheat the spirit of the game by ruining the game further. What is the purpose of these premade groups? Can't you win otherwise? Don't say bots. It is just a silly excuse. Premades were rampant before bots were so popular as they are right now. Also, there are times of the day where the chance you run into bots are indeed very high. 4 AM in the night, for example.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

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