Thread: Cow Clicking

Page 1 of 9
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Cow Clicking

    There's a common subgenre of Facebook and mobile games like "Farmville" that basically involve getting players to log in on a particular schedule to perform routine tasks -- clicking on crops or clicking on cows -- in order to achieve some sort of progress.

    These games achieved a popularity peak a couple of years ago, and then Facebook throttled the ability of these games to broadcast updates to the newsfeeds of friends of players, which slowed the spread of the games. Many players also got bored of this kind of gameplay. Zynga isn't doing well.

    Unfortunately, WoW has internalized the "Farmville" game design philosophy for a lot of its progress mechanics in MoP. The game seems to want to reward you for playing, and especially for playing a lot, rather than for playing well.

    I was a big fan of the philosophy behind dungeons in Cataclysm: that they ought to be hard. The development team at the time was perfectly content with the idea that many random groups would fail to complete the content.

    That position seemed to weakin in the 4.1 troll heroics, when many players were unable to complete the dungeons at all, and found their attempts uniformly ending with their groups vote-kicking them. Blizzard's response was to make vote-kick harder to use, and to make the next set of dungeons much easier; nearly impossible to fail, in fact.

    I understand that a lot of people didn't like failing at dungeons, but the possibility (or likelihood) of failure made success a goal worth pursuing. Without the risk of losing, completing dungeons and scenarios no longer feels like winning. Without a meaningful performance requirement required to complete these tasks, victory no longer comes with validation.

    LFR, Dungeons, scenarios and dailies feel, in short, like cow clicking.

    A lot of stuff gets skewed when this mentality takes over, and the game begins to demand time rather than performance. We see AFKers in LFR and botters taking over random battlegrounds, because individual performance has been removed from the equation that determines rewards.

    The quality of play in LFR raids is deplorable. People completely ignore mechanics and stand in ground effects. People are AFK during boss fights. If you inspect people you often see that their gear is ungemmed, unenchanted, unforged. There is no longer the sense that the content demands things of players. There is no longer the sense in random groups that other players will have expectations about your performance that they'll punish you for failing to meet.

    The result is a less compelling game. Without the need to join an organized progression guild to see raid content, there's less incentive to do so. More people are raiding, but there seem to be fewer progression guilds, and many people who used to raid now just dabble in LFR, or have quit altogether.

    What's especially frustrating is the fact that Blizzard continues to make challenging content, but walls it off from gear progression. We should be nudged toward things like Challenge Modes and Brawler's Guild for pre-raid gear and character progression, instead of LFR. The game should expect and demand things of us beyond time commitment. We should be better able to differentiate ourselves.

    I admit, in the stratified societies of previous expansions, it was probably difficult to maintain the subscriptions of the players who occupied the bottom rungs; the people who were vote-kicked out of every dungeon, berated in every battleground, and excluded from every raid. I'm not against there being stuff for such people to do, and ways for the baseline player to feel a progression relative to their past level of acquisition and static parts of the game, if not a progression relative to other players. However, the current state of the game really pushes a lot of players into a similar LFR progression path, including many players who used to participate in organized raids.
    Author of DON'T EVER GET OLD , Nominated for the Edgar, Anthony and Thriller awards for Best First Novel.
    My Blog: http://danieljfriedman.blogspot.com
    My Warcraft/Gaming Blog: http://biggerthankologarn.blogspot.com
    My Twitter: http://twitter.com/DanFriedman81

  2. #2
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Blorch - Home of the Slaughtering Rat People
    Posts
    15,820
    TLDR: "I am a special snowflake and demand the ability to wall the general population off from what I believe is my content."

    The fact of the matter is that the game only became popular once the system was relaxed to permit more casual playstyles and see a democratization of the content. The average player is not patient and/or competent enough to spend time on challenge modes, early Cata heroics, etc.

    You are looking for competence in places that were designed to be as permissive as possible.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    TLDR: "I am a special snowflake and demand the ability to wall the general population off from what I believe is my content."

    The fact of the matter is that the game only became popular once the system was relaxed to permit more casual playstyles and see a democratization of the content. The average player is not patient and/or competent enough to spend time on challenge modes, early Cata heroics, etc.

    You are looking for competence in places that were designed to be as permissive as possible.
    That's just stupid argument. You do know that a big part of players want to stand out?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    TLDR: "I am a special snowflake and demand the ability to wall the general population off from what I believe is my content."

    The fact of the matter is that the game only became popular once the system was relaxed to permit more casual playstyles and see a democratization of the content. The average player is not patient and/or competent enough to spend time on challenge modes, early Cata heroics, etc.

    You are looking for competence in places that were designed to be as permissive as possible.
    Dungeons and raids were never designed to be permissive until Hour of Twilight and LFR.

    The game was as popular in BC as it is now, and it was more popular in Wrath and Cata. Blizzard counts its global playerbase, which probably masks North American and EU subscriber declines with growth in China, where the game is still peaking, but guilds have really crumbled on my server since 4.3, and I absolutely blame LFR for taking the motivation out of raid progression. It's really hard to get psyched up to spend a night wiping on the raid version of a boss that is a speed bump in LFR, and drops similar loot.

    And, yes, I want to be a special snowflake? Why would I invest time, effort and monthly subscription fees in a persistent character, if I'm just going to be the same as everyone else. I could just play Call of Duty.
    Author of DON'T EVER GET OLD , Nominated for the Edgar, Anthony and Thriller awards for Best First Novel.
    My Blog: http://danieljfriedman.blogspot.com
    My Warcraft/Gaming Blog: http://biggerthankologarn.blogspot.com
    My Twitter: http://twitter.com/DanFriedman81

  5. #5
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Blorch - Home of the Slaughtering Rat People
    Posts
    15,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Howdyho View Post
    That's just stupid argument. You do know that a big part of players want to stand out?
    Of course, which is why there is specialized content available to those that truly want to invest the time and effort; Challenge Modes, Heroic raids, Achievements, etc.

    Expecting that to be incorporated into the main body of content is ridiculous and will only lead to the early-Cata blunder.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Of course, which is why there is specialized content available to those that truly want to invest the time and effort; Challenge Modes, Heroic raids, Achievements, etc.

    Expecting that to be incorporated into the main body of content is ridiculous and will only lead to the early-Cata blunder.
    Worked well before cata.

  7. #7
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Blorch - Home of the Slaughtering Rat People
    Posts
    15,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
    Dungeons and raids were never designed to be permissive until Hour of Twilight and LFR.

    The game was as popular in BC as it is now, and it was more popular in Wrath and Cata. Blizzard counts its global playerbase, which probably masks North American and EU subscriber declines with growth in China, where the game is still peaking, but guilds have really crumbled on my server since 4.3, and I absolutely blame LFR for taking the motivation out of raid progression. It's really hard to get psyched up to spend a night wiping on the raid version of a boss that is a speed bump in LFR, and drops similar loot.
    But it is -far- more popular now than it was in Vanilla, and I would hazard that the parity with BC is because WoW is an older game which tends to lose subscribers by nature.

    Which amounts to a personal problem, not a systemic one. LFR is excellent for those that cannot or do not want to invest a terrible amount of effort to see the content and get a basic level of gear for it.

    I would suggest taking the rose-coloured glasses off. The game was equally full of morons in Cataclysm and Wrath.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Of course, which is why there is specialized content available to those that truly want to invest the time and effort; Challenge Modes, Heroic raids, Achievements, etc.

    Expecting that to be incorporated into the main body of content is ridiculous and will only lead to the early-Cata blunder.
    I don't think the difficulty of heroic dungeons was a blunder in early Cata. Maybe there should have been something for players who were failing at heroic dungeons to do, but I think it was a good thing that players who performed in the dungeons progressed and players who didn't failed. It meant there was something at stake. When you just put in thirty minutes and collect your reward, that's just numbing. And when the reward signifies nothing except the fact that I played for thirty minutes, it barely seems worth pursuing.
    Author of DON'T EVER GET OLD , Nominated for the Edgar, Anthony and Thriller awards for Best First Novel.
    My Blog: http://danieljfriedman.blogspot.com
    My Warcraft/Gaming Blog: http://biggerthankologarn.blogspot.com
    My Twitter: http://twitter.com/DanFriedman81

  9. #9
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Blorch - Home of the Slaughtering Rat People
    Posts
    15,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Howdyho View Post
    Worked well before cata.
    Considering nobody on my server even saw Kil'jaeden, I would have to disagree.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
    I don't think the difficulty of heroic dungeons was a blunder in early Cata. Maybe there should have been something for players who were failing at heroic dungeons to do, but I think it was a good thing that players who performed in the dungeons progressed and players who didn't failed. It meant there was something at stake.
    The subscriber loss seems to disagree.

    This is a -game-, not a job. People come here to have fun, and in MoP they have introduced sufficiently challenging versions of the content and rewards thereof for those that desire it.

    Casuals are the norm. It is time to accept that.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  10. #10
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Australia! G-day Mate!... (We don't really speak like that)
    Posts
    5,667
    Well that was a giant wall of meaningless writing. Your opinion is not important at all. People like you are less then 0.1% of the people that play wow. For your info the cata heroics were horrible and no it was not because they were hard. It was because they were to long and dropped just blue gear for all the effort. People with any kind of a life and job didn't even have time to do there daily heroic after work. The mop heroics are right. They are quick and painless and drop blue gear the way it should be. If you want hard ones there is a reason blizz added challenge modes in and also heroic raids (Also i bet you don't even have your challenge set yet). And so i don't have to say it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    TLDR: "I am a special snowflake and demand the ability to wall the general population off from what I believe is my content."
    Angels and Airwaves
    Aldmeri Dominion - Imperial - Templar - Laethys - High Elf - Assassin - Frostmourne - Orc - Rogue - Sea of Sorrows - Norn - Thief
    Borderlands 2 - Mechromancer - Battlefield 4 - Engineer - Diablo 3 - Wizard

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Considering nobody on my server even saw Kil'jaeden, I would have to disagree.
    I don't think Mu'ru progression among top guilds would have been nearly as compelling if there had been an easymode version that random groups of people with ungemmed gear killed the day he became available.

    But segregating raids into normal and heroic versions really opened up progression possibilities for a lot of guilds, while still maintaining super-hard challenges for the most elite players. Then LFR just killed the midrange raid community.
    Author of DON'T EVER GET OLD , Nominated for the Edgar, Anthony and Thriller awards for Best First Novel.
    My Blog: http://danieljfriedman.blogspot.com
    My Warcraft/Gaming Blog: http://biggerthankologarn.blogspot.com
    My Twitter: http://twitter.com/DanFriedman81

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
    Unfortunately, WoW has internalized the "Farmville" game design philosophy for a lot of its progress mechanics in MoP. The game seems to want to reward you for playing, and especially for playing a lot, rather than for playing well.
    i've got to disagree with this point as well, when playing well can get heroic raids cleared the first week they are available.
    and if you are "good" in arena, you win 5 games a week with your partner.(and if you had 4k jp/hp saved up from cata, made it a lot easier)
    as well as crafted gear, but heh.

    playing 'well' is rewarded by not having to play often, same thing it's always been. exception being of course first week or two of new content.
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Considering nobody on my server even saw Kil'jaeden, I would have to disagree.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 12:56 AM ----------



    The subscriber loss seems to disagree.

    This is a -game-, not a job. People come here to have fun, and in MoP they have introduced sufficiently challenging versions of the content and rewards thereof for those that desire it.

    Casuals are the norm. It is time to accept that.
    Then your casual server didn't earn it. And thanks to the old system, the old raids never became irrelevant so there was practically more relevant content available at all times.

  14. #14
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Australia! G-day Mate!... (We don't really speak like that)
    Posts
    5,667
    Quote Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
    I don't think Mu'ru progression among top guilds would have been nearly as compelling if there had been an easymode version that random groups of people with ungemmed gear killed the day he became available.

    But segregating raids into normal and heroic versions really opened up progression possibilities for a lot of guilds, while still maintaining super-hard challenges for the most elite players. Then LFR just killed the midrange raid community.
    Now you are using a broken boss as evidence. And no it did not kill the midrange raidin community. Right now there is more raiding guilds for normal content then there has ever been in the game.

  15. #15
    The Patient reffan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Katowice, Upper Silesia
    Posts
    229
    I agree. Heroics in Cataclysm were far better in term of difficulty. They were not easy, but even average player was able to complete them. And from 4.3 you just make faceroll over keyboard and get loot. This is ridiculous.

  16. #16
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    10,629
    Quote Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
    We should be nudged toward things like Challenge Modes and Brawler's Guild for pre-raid gear and character progression, instead of LFR.
    The ultimate result of that would be even fewer people raiding and eventually the virtual elimination of it from the game. And it's not clear to me that LFR is required to begin raiding T14.

    As to the rest of your post, that's one person's opinion more or less. If the game isn't compelling then I don't see why you would play it. It's fine that you enjoyed how Cataclysm started out. It's clear that making the game more difficult after Wrath was a serious business mistake that Blizzard is still paying for. A lot of those two million that left--most of them--never came back. You might be fine with several million people leaving the game. You might see it as taking out the trash and good riddance. You don't get to make that decision though.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-01-13 at 09:05 AM.
    If you have anything to contribute to a thread topic, please do so. Discussing moderation or calling out specific people is against the rules and makes a post liable for an infraction. Please report problem posts. If anyone is unclear about the rules please read our FAQ. Thanks.

    It's a magical world, Hobbes, ol' buddy...let's go exploring!

  17. #17
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Blorch - Home of the Slaughtering Rat People
    Posts
    15,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
    I don't think Mu'ru progression among top guilds would have been nearly as compelling if there had been an easymode version that random groups of people with ungemmed gear killed the day he became available.

    But segregating raids into normal and heroic versions really opened up progression possibilities for a lot of guilds, while still maintaining super-hard challenges for the most elite players. Then LFR just killed the midrange raid community.
    "Compelling" is a very subjective term, and in your case I believe the "compelling" thing was being able to do it without having to share the content.

    It is entirely reasonable for Blizzard to want a large majority of the playerbase to see the content they have invested considerable time and effort into developing, content which is often central to the story. And as it stands LFR is not even a prerequisite for entering normal modes.

    You are confusing symptom with problem, ultimately. WoW is an older game, people are naturally getting burnt out on it as it progresses. LFR's introduction was coincidental.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  18. #18
    Well obviously they had to make it easier to reach people who would be playing solitaire otherwise instead of an actual game that requires a certain amount of attention.

  19. #19
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Blorch - Home of the Slaughtering Rat People
    Posts
    15,820
    Quote Originally Posted by Howdyho View Post
    Then your casual server didn't earn it. And thanks to the old system, the old raids never became irrelevant so there was practically more relevant content available at all times.
    False. Under the old system progression there was a significant barrier of entry into the current tier of raiding; why do you think Badges of Justice were introduced in the first place?
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Considering nobody on my server even saw Kil'jaeden, I would have to disagree.
    And yet millions of people still enjoyed playing the game without feeling some bizarre entitlement to everything.

    That said, I don't particularly mind the current model - there's challenge there if you want it, easy content if you don't - but I don't agree with your sentiment that no one on your server being good enough to kill KJ is a fault in design.

    Casuals are the norm. I accept that.
    The game GREW during classic and TBC, which was ridiculously punishing to casuals - because casuals played casual content, they did what was available FOR THEM without demanding access to raids - which weren't designed for casual play back then.

    People need to learn that not EVERYTHING in the game is for them, both casual and "hardcore" - casual players need to stop clamoring for easier raid content outside of LFR and arguably normals, "hardcore" players need to stop complaining about how easy dailies, dungeons and LFR is.

    Go play the content designed for you, stop complaining when you can't play everything.

    I never beat orcs must die on the hardest difficulty setting, I still enjoyed doing the normal difficulty and what levels I could on the harder one. I was not robbed in any way, the hard content doesn't need to be made easier - I had my fun with what I could manage, and if I want to do more - that's on my end to get better. If you don't feel you got your monies worth, then you made a poor purchase and, in the case of WoW, can stop paying at any time.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •