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  1. #41
    Pit Lord gutnbrg's Avatar
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    is the blade furry "nerf" realy stopping grps from bringing rogues?

  2. #42
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutnbrg View Post
    is the blade furry "nerf" realy stopping grps from bringing rogues?
    Maybe, and that is a big maybe, at the super, upper echelon, top .01% of guilds for niche fights like garalon or wind lord. Other than that, and for the majority of the player base, I don't see it costing anyone a raid spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    Edit- On the topic of DI and FM, Power Infusion also got changed, it's now self cast only. Seems the only single target damage boost that wasn't reworked WAS tricks. More of Blizz ignoring rogues?
    But they did rework it. Now it definitely costs you dps to use it for a very marginal raid dps gain which I would say killed good bit of its usefulness. It now can't be used as a 0 personal dps loss single target dps increasing cooldown just as none of those moves can be now either. Probably just didn't flat out remove it because of the threat thing, but honestly those are meaningless with what they have done to threat and tanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    Maybe, and that is a big maybe, at the super, upper echelon, top .01% of guilds for niche fights like garalon or wind lord. Other than that, and for the majority of the player base, I don't see it costing anyone a raid spot.
    Yeah sure, a lot of guilds don't have anyone to replace the rogue. Doesn't mean its ok for them to leave it at the point where you know your raid would be better off if you had played X instead of rogue. I mean our damage is fine sure, but its not ahead or anything (aside from current BF related things), and the things we really contribute has definitely gone down with the BF change.

    Edit: Though honestly what I want TotT to be is Tigers Fury. I mean they were pretty much identical in cata except TotT isn't self castable and has the threat part. But a self castable TotT with a glyph that lets us ignore positional requirements for the duration would be pretty spiffy for sub.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-01-14 at 09:02 AM.

  4. #44
    Let's be happy about Blizzard looking into ways to increase our utility, and stop diluting this fact with our personal top-3 "Problems with Rogues". While relevant, thats another topic. And our DPS is fine; it just can't stand on its own. Utility is the answer.

    Personally I like that they're strapping it onto SB; I've always liked the flavour and feel of it, and being a short-ranged LOS spell it could end up adding a new dimension to raid strategy. Being PTR this might all just go away... but as preliminary analysis goes, I'm a fan.

  5. #45
    I think i've only used smoke bomb while raiding on Garajal before, and although its quite nice there it seemed blizz was already heading in the defensive cd direction. Rogues only gain from it and although some may prefer a different kind of utility, at least rogues are getting something.

  6. #46
    This would be a good change in PvE.

    20% damage reduction for 7 seconds (with glyph) is quite powerful.

    On a lot of fights the raid is spread, and so this is less useful, but there are always fights when the raid or part of the raid can stack, and this can be very useful. Recent fights include Yorsahj, Ultraxion, Spine, Madness, Feng, Elegon, Blade Lord and there are likely to be fights in 5.2.

    Hell, on some fights you could just pop it as a personal defensive cooldown which would be very powerful with Elusiveness, and even more powerful if the damage is AOE.

    Ideally they would change the duration but that would have implications in PvP.

    We should be happy about this.

  7. #47
    Free utility at the cost of nothing? Why not.

    PvP implications are surely something too keep an eye on, but making raid leaders think "if i bring a rogue i can use an additional defense raid CD" is somethign we're asking for years.

    A step in the right direction. I see these changes as band-aid fixes to test how rogues will act with new mechanics/roles waiting for 6.0 for a complete revamp.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 02:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    ^I don't think people are genuinely unhappy about getting a raid-cooldown, but rather that they're unhappy about the changes we're NOT getting. Getting a raid cooldown is fine, but at this point it feels more like a band-aid than a solution.
    Yeah, i see this as a band-aid. Bu let's be honest, what we want and what the class needs it's not something that can be changed in a small or major patch, it's somethign worth an expansion - look at warlocks. They work they have done on them is really good.

    We need to wait (again).

    @jtstormrage: clicked on your armory and was like "WAT he stealed my rogue"
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2013-01-14 at 02:00 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Free utility at the cost of nothing? Why not.

    PvP implications are surely something too keep an eye on, but making raid leaders think "if i bring a rogue i can use an additional defense raid CD" is somethign we're asking for years.

    A step in the right direction. I see these changes as band-aid fixes to test how rogues will act with new mechanics/roles waiting for 6.0 for a complete revamp.
    As much as I'd like to see that to be true, I wouldn't hold my breath. Chances are all we'll see up 'till 6.0 will be more band-aid fixes, and even more band-aids when 6.0 actually lands. I really, really, wish for that revamp to happen, but I'm just not counting on it.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    As much as I'd like to see that to be true, I wouldn't hold my breath. Chances are all we'll see up 'till 6.0 will be more band-aid fixes, and even more band-aids when 6.0 actually lands. I really, really, wish for that revamp to happen, but I'm just not counting on it.
    Someone sometimes can only hope.

  10. #50
    Suggestion: what about TotT increasing both rogue and target's dmg? That would give rogues a reason to use a skill that is pretty stupid and useless right now...

  11. #51
    Since we are usually in range of the tank or at least can be, this could also be an extra tank cooldown too.

  12. #52
    Beware: don' think of too powerful and especially spammable buttons.

    TotT as tank/raid cd = we become TotT bots and we absolutely don't want that.

    Smoke Bomb is a good choice because it has a fairly long CD and can cover the raid.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Beware: don' think of too powerful and especially spammable buttons.

    TotT as tank/raid cd = we become TotT bots and we absolutely don't want that.

    Smoke Bomb is a good choice because it has a fairly long CD and can cover the raid.
    Tricks needs to be revamped entirely; not just become a similar ability to what it is now, with a different effect. When most people (including me) say they want Tricks to be turned into a raid wide cooldown of sorts, it's safe to assume we also want it to have a substantial cooldown as well. Or better yet....!

    Make Smoke Bomb a raid wide defensive cooldown, as planned. And while you're at it, make Tricks a raid wide offensive cooldown, like Skull Banner. That would give us both offensive and defensive utility - which I'd claim is a fair tradeoff, considering we're a pure class and don't bring any other utility in the form of hybrid specs.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Tricks needs to be revamped entirely; not just become a similar ability to what it is now, with a different effect. When most people (including me) say they want Tricks to be turned into a raid wide cooldown of sorts, it's safe to assume we also want it to have a substantial cooldown as well. Or better yet....!

    Make Smoke Bomb a raid wide defensive cooldown, as planned. And while you're at it, make Tricks a raid wide offensive cooldown, like Skull Banner. That would give us both offensive and defensive utility - which I'd claim is a fair tradeoff, considering we're a pure class and don't bring any other utility in the form of hybrid specs.
    Seems quite legit if you consider that they don't want pures to be ahead of hybrids in terms of dmg

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Tricks needs to be revamped entirely; not just become a similar ability to what it is now, with a different effect. When most people (including me) say they want Tricks to be turned into a raid wide cooldown of sorts, it's safe to assume we also want it to have a substantial cooldown as well. Or better yet....!

    Make Smoke Bomb a raid wide defensive cooldown, as planned. And while you're at it, make Tricks a raid wide offensive cooldown, like Skull Banner. That would give us both offensive and defensive utility - which I'd claim is a fair tradeoff, considering we're a pure class and don't bring any other utility in the form of hybrid specs.
    as i said earlier: i think we should get an offensive CD in the form of a gas bomb, similar to Toxitron - Chemical Bomb.

    don't take an ability away from us just because it has limited uses.

    edit: and smoke bomb can keep it's current utility in PVP, having the damage reduction tacked on but only apply to AoE damage since that's rarely used in PVP.
    Last edited by Ssith; 2013-01-14 at 02:36 PM.

  16. #56
    I'm wondering why people are complaining that smoke bomb might be converted into raid defensive cooldown. Why there has to be a new ability? I'm so full of new abilities it's just mad to add another. There's just no keybinds left soon, we have like a 50 keybinds used atm, we don't need another one, revamp the other's is perfectly fine. Good player knows how to utilize all of his classes cds, but i'm just fed up with god damn ctrl-shift-qwerty. Same with shamans as i just assigned my enhancement shamans abilities, i was like Yes!, enough keybinds for priorities and cds, and then i was like oh god dammit 74 totems still unassigned. The most difficult thing in a rotation or priority is not to know the priority, it's to remember where the heck did i bind that spell.

    And Smoke bomb for one is finally useful in pve after this, 20% isn't that much and the duration is short, but it's still something. And the radius why are people so focused on that? Why an earth does the entire 25man raid need to fit in to the radius, it's a cooldown for 5 seconds and 20%. It's not meant to save the entire raid, it's meant to help. And for that matter it's an excellent cd for tanks and specially melee, which rogues in the end are. Melee are always stacked except some very rare conditions and as that usually take a bunch of damage as a group. Ranged can always move and today with instant and on-the-move castable spells, keep dps up, melee are restricted off that movement and a lot more vulnerable as group. For that this is a very welcome addition. I ain't gonna argue with pvp, but in my understanding the pvp fights haven't been 5 second long in many years. With these health pools and resilience and mana regen, how long is 5 seconds every 3 minutes really in a 25 minute 1vs1 or 45 minute arena?

    And TotT, yes it has lost a lot of it's former glory like what it had during wotlk, but it's still very good situational ability. As i see it it was originally meant to be for transferring threat, the damage bonus always made us (at least me) feel like we where there to boost someone else. Even though threat mechanics are now a lot different and threat is usually not a problem. I see TotT still has very much the situational power it was designed for. Much like misdirection, it won't be the last time i've saved an overenthuastic aoe mages life by TotTing an addpack to offtank or any other mob that the tank has not got threat on for some reason. People seem to expect that every ability needs to be used constantly and everywhere and oneshot everything. For those people i say, play a shaman and then come tell us again how big of a % of your abilities you use constantly. For that matter i've glyphed my TotT, ain't botting for no one, but might save a life or two here and there, cause it's free to use.

    Yes more dps kills bosses, but dead dps doesn't kill anything.
    Last edited by Redecle; 2013-01-14 at 03:53 PM.

  17. #57
    Blizzard's idea for Smoke Bomb is a good one. It will be a bit situational, but so are it's brethren (Devo Aura and Rallying Cry).
    But really, it should be a glyph:

    Glyph of Smoke Field:
    Smoke Bomb now spreads over 40 yards and gives all party members within it 20% damage reduction, but no longer prevents targets from targeting into or out of the smoke.

    Basically turning it into Devotion Aura, but all damage (Devo is magic-only) and making it effective in ALL raid situations instead of only on "Everyone stack for a while" fights like Elegon burn phase, Gara'jal and Feng.
    Carp - Illidan-US
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  18. #58
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    I think having it better than Devotion Aura is asking for a lot, really.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I think having it better than Devotion Aura is asking for a lot, really.
    They already intend for it to be all damage, so I just said "all damage". It'd probably be physical damage to complement Devo Aura, if that's the route they went.
    Carp - Illidan-US
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    They already intend for it to be all damage, so I just said "all damage". It'd probably be physical damage to complement Devo Aura, if that's the route they went.
    If they make it to work only for physical dmg i can see the new smoke bomb already dead before implementation since most of the bosses' aoe abilities are magical dmg.

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