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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
    Comparing pvp to pve isnt making a very good point. PvE, espeically in dps role, is about the dps. Equal skill - gear decides the dps. And thats it.

    In pvp, IT SHOULD come down to a lot more than just dps. In the current state of pvp, it doesn't. If you have t2 and full gear, people die in 1-3 'shots'. This is the biggest problem, the point is, doesn't matter how much skill a person has if the other person kills them in 2 hits. Gear should help, not make it impossible for the other person to react.

    Not saying that TBC was the 'perfect state' but you only to see the HUGE difference in the amount of time it took to kill someone / games to see that the gear is a big problem. The upgradable gear just isn't fun and isnt right for pvp, the ilvl gap was too big to begin with and they just made it worse.

    If gear is suppose to decide the fight, and upgradeable gear is the path they want to take, then fine...but don't expect 'pvp players' to play this game.
    They are taking it out of the game for a reason I guess. =).
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  2. #22
    Taking what out?
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
    Comparing pvp to pve isnt making a very good point. PvE, espeically in dps role, is about the dps. Equal skill - gear decides the dps. And thats it.

    In pvp, IT SHOULD come down to a lot more than just dps. In the current state of pvp, it doesn't. If you have t2 and full gear, people die in 1-3 'shots'. This is the biggest problem, the point is, doesn't matter how much skill a person has if the other person kills them in 2 hits. Gear should help, not make it impossible for the other person to react.

    Not saying that TBC was the 'perfect state' but you only to see the HUGE difference in the amount of time it took to kill someone / games to see that the gear is a big problem. The upgradable gear just isn't fun and isnt right for pvp, the ilvl gap was too big to begin with and they just made it worse.

    If gear is suppose to decide the fight, and upgradeable gear is the path they want to take, then fine...but don't expect 'pvp players' to play this game.
    Thats the thing tho. Gear isnt everything even if it is a big factor. Bad players will still be bad and get shit on by good players.
    On the highest rating gear doesnt matter since everyone has the same gear anyways. Its just the grind until you get full gear that is a bitch.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    Taking what out?
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...Weekly-Roundup

  5. #25
    So what happens to gear that's already been upgraded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazdum View Post
    Because they started playing 4 weeks before me?
    Do you even know how gear wors in PvP nowdays?
    The ilvl difference btw honor gear and fully upgrade malevolent is retarded big, its like the guy in honor is playing in tbc gear and the fully epic guys is playing with wotlk gear, its one freaking expansion of difference.
    And thats not the worst part, the worst part is, with this crap upgrade thing you wont ever catch up, till the end of the season, if you upgrade you gear every week the guy in fully epic will still have parts to upgrade too so the gap remains the same.

    Theres a reason why blizzard said there wont be upgrade gear next season, and they will change the way arena gear works, its just sad they gave up on this season already.
    It's not the ilvl difference that's massive, it's the ilvl -> stat translation that's massive. If there was a difference of 20 ilvls but the ilvls were 120 and 140 the difference would be so minute as to be nearly insignificant. See: s4 where people in honor gear could consistently compete with and beat people in full brutal gear depending on skill.

    People keep saying "too much CC" like that's the most important issue/culprit for the current state of pvp. I disagree. Blizzard seems to have butchered unique playing styles to such an extent that literally every single class right now is a "blow all cds and win". Hell, some classes are "blow cds, burn target through defensive cds". It's literally a competition of who can blow their burst cds first. CC is an after thought in most games even after the hunter/warrior nerfs.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2013-01-14 at 03:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
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  7. #27
    Stood in the Fire frigoffrick's Avatar
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    My sub ran out 2 weeks ago. Being a player that 100% PvP's, I have no desire to go back at the moment.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    So what happens to gear that's already been upgraded.
    Per the same link I posted, upgraded gear retains it's upgrades...they will re-evaluate it later on so there's no guarantee that it won't return (although I wish it wouldn't).

  9. #29
    The Patient derp singed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zots View Post
    I don't mean to be "that guy", but if those players are just some "bads" and you're mr. pro elite, why do they have better gear than you? Might want to think about that.
    Might have to do with me starting later in the expansion with that toon or the toon beeing an alt.

  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral Avada Kedavra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vutar View Post
    So first you say it's a L2P issue...then you freely admit it's a gear issue and should be.

    I'll say your post is a /pull your head out of blizzards...issue.
    did u think that gear didnt matter? bad on you then. Its stupidly obvious that gear plays a roll, dont act surprised. And yes it is a L2P issue, if you arent able to do anything, then figure it out, if you are losing every match or pvp encounter you are DOING SOMETHING WRONG, so ya, its a L2P issue.

    Yes gear plays a roll, if someone needed that explained, then we are brought back full circle to L2P!

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by dercaderca View Post
    It can be quite difficult to CC if your being chain CC'd.

    Gear should be an advantage, it should not be a deal breaker like it currently is.
    Gear should be removed from competetive/rated PvP, just like it is on the arena tournaments. when you enter an arena/rbg, you should be able to equip a pvp set that you get upon dinging 90. this will stop the mass bots in random bgs, and pvpers will have time to pve as well, and the other way around.

  12. #32
    [QUOTE=Lemonpartyfan;19824223]This is how it should be. [COLOR="red"]
    No, its not how it should be, it wanst like that for 10 arena seasons why change now?.
    People who started earler in past seasons had an advantage, the gap now is just too big

    To gain full Malevolent gear with 2/2 upgrades with t2 gear (56000 Conquest Points):
    31.1 weeks to cap 1800 from arenas only
    25.5 weeks to cap 2200 points per week with arenas + 1 rbg
    18.6 weeks to cap 3000 points per week
    17.7 weeks to cap 3150 (maximum available from arena)
    14.5 weeks to cap 3850 (maximum available from RBG)

    If you only do arenas you wont probably by full geared before the season ends, and thats assuming you play every single week.
    Comparing arena to PvE is stupid, the boss doenst get harder every week, in fact its the other way around, after a few weeks Blizzard usually nerf raid bosses so all raiders who cant pass it dont just give up.

    And last and most important, it kills the FUN, the current system doesnt make fun to any side, the guy in full epic gear or the guy in honor pieces trying to compete, one is playing a game with cheat mode on, the other knows he has no chance of winning no matter how good he is.

  13. #33
    Bloodsail Admiral Avada Kedavra's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Kazdum;19825303]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    This is how it should be. [COLOR="red"]
    No, its not how it should be, it wanst like that for 10 arena seasons why change now?.
    People who started earler in past seasons had an advantage, the gap now is just too big

    To gain full Malevolent gear with 2/2 upgrades with t2 gear (56000 Conquest Points):
    31.1 weeks to cap 1800 from arenas only
    25.5 weeks to cap 2200 points per week with arenas + 1 rbg
    18.6 weeks to cap 3000 points per week
    17.7 weeks to cap 3150 (maximum available from arena)
    14.5 weeks to cap 3850 (maximum available from RBG)

    If you only do arenas you wont probably by full geared before the season ends, and thats assuming you play every single week.
    Comparing arena to PvE is stupid, the boss doenst get harder every week, in fact its the other way around, after a few weeks Blizzard usually nerf raid bosses so all raiders who cant pass it dont just give up.

    And last and most important, it kills the FUN, the current system doesnt make fun to any side, the guy in full epic gear or the guy in honor pieces trying to compete, one is playing a game with cheat mode on, the other knows he has no chance of winning no matter how good he is.
    Sampling from the very extreme are we? World of Warcraft PvP is not the dire situation you are making it out to be. Its not cheat mode when they earned the gear. Because I have run RBG's and arena and have the malev gear, you want the game to just give it to you cause you cant beat me? No get ur ass out there are get the gear, its not that hard people. quitchya bitchen. Its COMPLETELY about progression, did it suck for EVERYONE that was rocking a contender set? of course. That is the PvP right of passage, that hasnt changed.

  14. #34
    MoP PvP- where losing control of your character for more than half the match is where the fun is at. Blizz have really nailed it big time this xpac, because as they have realised players love it when they lose control of their characters while stuck in a chain CC and this expansion is a dream come true for them. It's not even a L2P issue, because once you've countered them it's still pile on all the CCs and blow burst you can except it's you doing it to them. Having a few CCs in the game was good, gave it a bit of strategy and Blizzard have decided that more CC should lead to more strategy which is as about far from the case as it could be. PvP is just flat out boring now either being stuck in a CC or hitting on an opponent stuck in a CC. And this god awful item upgrade thing they have going on has just about killed my interest in the game.

  15. #35
    One key point is being missed here. The issue is not whether or not earning gear should give you an advantage. It should. The point is that earning gear gives you a near insurmountable advantage due to time constraints and scaling. To reiterate what others have said in this thread, the difference between honor gear, even fully upgraded, and malevolent gear is absolutely massive. That would be okay except for the main issue- catching up is impossible. People keep saying that skill is the issue if you are undergeared, but the two are very seperate.

    I say this because I have a unique perspective, I'm a former gladiator who started late November-early December. Due to having quality friends on my server still, I immediately jumped into the top RBG group and we pushed it to near 2300. I did this a week and a half after starting playing, so my cap has been way higher than the average Joe, whether they started late or not. That being said, even if I play every week with a 2300 rbg cap, I will still be wayyyyy behind come the end of the season. I also have a unique perspective because my play periods are erratic, every time that I have played I've jumped in mid-season and competed at high levels, even with less gear than the curve. That is not the case this season, I have been avoiding arena because it is simply not fun to play against fully decked out players, even in the 1800s. I actually feel that pvp is fairly well balanced this season and I think most of the complaints regarding balance are exagerated, but the gear differential is far worse than it has ever been.

    To sum it up, the problem is that it is impossible to catch up in a season that will end far too early for a system that rewards a slow capping of gear. It means that starting late in the season doesn't gimp you until you can catch up, it simply gimps you for the entire season. If I manage gladiator this season, it will be playing against guys who outgear me significantly, even if I play every week with a high cap. That has never been the case before. With a 2300 RBG cap I will end this season still well behind in gear than anyone who has been playing since the start. That is simply too punishing for a system that wants to tout any sort of competitive nature.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazdum View Post
    And last and most important, it kills the FUN, the current system doesnt make fun to any side, the guy in full epic gear or the guy in honor pieces trying to compete, one is playing a game with cheat mode on, the other knows he has no chance of winning no matter how good he is.
    Same guy who posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazdum View Post
    You know what? F*ck you.

    I will kill your lvl 10 with my lvl 90 and i will sit on your corpse, i will kill your rare pets and fly paths NPCs.

    Deal with me
    rawr

  17. #37
    [QUOTE=Kazdum;19825303]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    This is how it should be. [COLOR="red"]
    No, its not how it should be, it wanst like that for 10 arena seasons why change now?.
    People who started earler in past seasons had an advantage, the gap now is just too big

    To gain full Malevolent gear with 2/2 upgrades with t2 gear (56000 Conquest Points):
    31.1 weeks to cap 1800 from arenas only
    25.5 weeks to cap 2200 points per week with arenas + 1 rbg
    18.6 weeks to cap 3000 points per week
    17.7 weeks to cap 3150 (maximum available from arena)
    14.5 weeks to cap 3850 (maximum available from RBG)

    If you only do arenas you wont probably by full geared before the season ends, and thats assuming you play every single week.
    Comparing arena to PvE is stupid, the boss doenst get harder every week, in fact its the other way around, after a few weeks Blizzard usually nerf raid bosses so all raiders who cant pass it dont just give up.

    And last and most important, it kills the FUN, the current system doesnt make fun to any side, the guy in full epic gear or the guy in honor pieces trying to compete, one is playing a game with cheat mode on, the other knows he has no chance of winning no matter how good he is.
    Indeed. I decided to wait until 5.2. PVP is a waste of time at the moment. I love being rewarded for effort but I wanted to play with a friend who just started and it's just impossible to catch up. I know that it's not all about gear but sooner or later you reach a point where you meet the best players who are playing the best setups and have the best gear so you are screwed no matter how good you are.

  18. #38
    Skill has meant nothing since WoTLK, its all been gear and FOTM since then.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Avada Kedavra View Post
    did u think that gear didnt matter? bad on you then. Its stupidly obvious that gear plays a roll, dont act surprised. And yes it is a L2P issue, if you arent able to do anything, then figure it out, if you are losing every match or pvp encounter you are DOING SOMETHING WRONG, so ya, its a L2P issue.

    Yes gear plays a roll, if someone needed that explained, then we are brought back full circle to L2P!


    Do you know how ridiculous you sound at this point? You double down on saying that gear matters but then say if people lose bg's it is a L2P issue. Maybe a third post contradicting yourself will clear things up...

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Svarbald View Post
    Skill has meant nothing since WoTLK, its all been gear and FOTM since then.
    Agreed 100%. Everyone I know who did serious arena back in BC and WoTLK either doesn't care anymore or quit the game altogether. I used to be big into arena back in BC/Wotlk, but now I don't even bother. I try to do 2s and 3s w/ friends just for points, but it's so bad I just get frustrated and quit. PvP in this game needs some serious work.

    Main issues right now:

    1. CC is out of control. Period.
    2. Win trading is running rampant in RBGs to the point of being completely disgusting.
    3. Too much constant overbuffing and overnerfing, resulting in FOTM classes.

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