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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    "Arrows in the Quiver" does not mean "a weapon to kill".
    It's a saying that means one thing only: "resources that help you to achieve a goal"

    So you are saying that they went from being "a resource to achieve a goal" to being "a resource to achieve a goal"?


    Yes, just like she said her sister meant nothing to her..
    "Screw this world and everybody" is a normal reaction if you just killed yourself.

    More quotes to support she came back for her people:
    It doesn't take a crystal ball to see Hellscream squandering the Horde's resources, tearing it apart in his lust for conquest." Sylvanas felt the old anger welling up again, but couldn't feel her body respond.

    Anyway, the story literally says she doesn't want to leave because of the fear.
    "But she didn't want to give her assent out of fear. She waited until she felt something more. A fellowship. A sisterhood. Sisters. Separate, they were all trapped. But together, they were free… and with them, she could postpone her fate."
    lol, it says she doesn't want leave because of fear, but that last line makes quite clear she is leaving out of fear now that she's found a new way to hide from death like a coward by literally throwing all of these new sisters into her place in hell each time she dies.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    lol, it says she doesn't want leave because of fear, but that last line makes quite clear she is leaving out of fear now that she's found a new way to hide from death like a coward by literally throwing all of these new sisters into her place in hell each time she dies.
    Postponing actually implies that there are more important things going on.
    You postpone stuff that you want to do later, because you have more important matters going on.
    If you want to keep pushing something back because you don't want it, you should use the word detain, retard or restrain.

    So she's not hiding from death, she is just delaying it.

  3. #103
    That makes it any better how Kangodo? That just means she knows it'll catch up to her eventually. Between Silverpine Forest and Andorhal we see she's brought in dozens more val'kyr. I don't think she's planning on dying as long as she can get more val'kyr to throw in her place in hell every time she dies. Especially with her reaction to the val'kyr reviving her again in Silverpine.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    "Arrows in the Quiver" does not mean "a weapon to kill".
    It's a saying that means one thing only: "resources that help you to achieve a goal"

    So you are saying that they went from being "a resource to achieve a goal" to being "a resource to achieve a goal"?
    No I'm saying they are both resources (cause why would Sylvanas call them a people?) used to achieve her goal. The goal is simply different.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    More quotes to support she came back for her people:
    It doesn't take a crystal ball to see Hellscream squandering the Horde's resources, tearing it apart in his lust for conquest." Sylvanas felt the old anger welling up again, but couldn't feel her body respond.
    It's worth noting that she doesn't refer to the Forsaken as a people but as a resource.

    Most importantly several lines down in the same conversation - "She cared nothing for their fate. "Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!""

    However all of this for moot as it doesn't actually tell us anything about her wanting her people saved, just that she disliked Garrosh methods when using her "resources".

    After that quote I fail to see how you even attempt to say that she came back for her people at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Anyway, the story literally says she doesn't want to leave because of the fear.
    "But she didn't want to give her assent out of fear. She waited until she felt something more. A fellowship. A sisterhood. Sisters. Separate, they were all trapped. But together, they were free… and with them, she could postpone her fate."
    Please note the last words of the sentence. Also you've missed out quoting the rest of it's context consisting of her practically shatting herself, she's making excuses for herself.
    Everything in the story is showing her off as a selfish leader who doesn't care for her and only came back because of her fear of death and has to make excuses because of it.
    You also miss off the first line "Sylvanas answered, but not right away. The lurking oblivion filled her with terror. Even now, she felt the tempest rage around her.". So no she didn't want to give into fear, but she damn well did. You can't tell me a character that had a character of steel who then winds up broken when she dies and see's her fate wouldn't make her decision based upon the fear of living in that torment.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-01-14 at 06:21 PM.

  5. #105
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    She will become useful again once she is used in conjunction with the dark Ranger hero class to come out some day.
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  6. #106
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    really liked Sylvanas Windrunner in Wc3 and probable one of Blizzards few characters that have still kept their identity in WoW :P

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    No I'm saying they are both resources (cause why would Sylvanas call them a people?) used to achieve her goal. The goal is simply different.
    And what that goal is, is discussable.

    It's worth noting that she doesn't refer to the Forsaken as a people but as a resource.
    No, she refers to them as a bulwark; a bastion, a fortress!
    That can refer to them becoming a Faction that will stand for thousands of years.

    Most importantly several lines down in the same conversation - "She cared nothing for their fate. "Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!""
    Which is typical behaviour for someone who just committed suicide.

    However all of this for moot as it doesn't actually tell us anything about her wanting her people saved, just that she disliked Garrosh methods when using her "resources".
    As in: She doesn't want him to throw away their lives.

    After that quote I fail to see how you even attempt to say that she came back for her people at all.
    Because people are biased with this "Sylvanas is evil!", which makes sure that everything she does is always explained in the evil way.
    She could probably say she loves puppies and people would argue that she loves to eat them.

    Sylvanas is a pretty simple character:
    She wanted revenge, throwing away Forsaken as if it were tools.
    But then she actually started to care about them, she even names them "her people".
    Not tools, not the Forsaken, 'HER' people.
    And like any obsessed teenage emo-girl she puts on the 'though'-attitude as if she doesn't care about them.
    Exactly as she did with her sister! But you don't suddenly start singing the Lament of the Highborne if you don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    That makes it any better how Kangodo? That just means she knows it'll catch up to her eventually. Between Silverpine Forest and Andorhal we see she's brought in dozens more val'kyr. I don't think she's planning on dying as long as she can get more val'kyr to throw in her place in hell every time she dies. Especially with her reaction to the val'kyr reviving her again in Silverpine.
    Well, that won't take long if it takes THREE Val'Kyr tor resurrect her.
    According to the lore, there are only 4 Val'Kyr left and the lesser ones aren't strong enough to resurrect Sylvanas.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    Yes is true, Sylvanas does aprove the use of the plague and why not? the plague give her an advantage against her enemies, also the forsaken does multiple types of experiments to improve the way they life or the way the fight (the plague)
    Then people should stop with that shit and say "We are assholes who give a shit about anything as long as our enemies die"

    And i've been talking about this a lot recently, the Forsaken especially Sylvanas have a habit of abusing Powers that tend to backfire.

    The Plague destroys the Land and anything else it touches, it won't be soon until other forces than just the Alliance will stand against the Forsaken if they continue to use the plague.
    The Argent Crusade, Cenarion Circle or Knights of the Ebon Blade will not stand idle and watch how the Forsaken destroy anything with the Plague.

    Sylvanas enforced Varimathras under her will, he helped to create the plague and in the end it backfired with the Battle for the Undercity.

    Sylvanas ressurected Godfrey, to use him against the Worgen, he thanked her with a bullet in the back.

    Now Sylvanas is using the Plague (A product of someone who betrayed her) and doesn't even think of the potential consequences.


    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    Well she have never acted as a dictator, the only time she did something agaisnt someone that was against her was when that person do something to harm her or her people (For example that guy at the forsaken starting zone that becames the boss of the rottenbrain group, they got targeted cause they were planning to attack brill)
    So this whole "Those who do not stand with the Forsaken, stand against the Forsaken" is just hot air in the end?
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-01-14 at 06:46 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The Argent Crusade, Cenarion Circle or Knights of the Ebon Blade will not stand idle and watch how the Forsaken destroy anything with the Plague.
    Argent Crusade is idealistic and weak, Cenarion Circle is too far and Ebon Blade doesnt care, as long as Arthas is dead.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    No, she refers to them as a bulwark; a bastion, a fortress!
    That can refer to them becoming a Faction that will stand for thousands of years.
    She refers to them as both. However isn't it funny that she very rarely (if ever) calls them a people.

    Against the Infinite
    It's pretty obvious what is implied by "infinite" - the afterlife.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Which is typical behaviour for someone who just committed suicide.

    As in: She doesn't want him to throw away their lives.
    I'm not sure what your first response is meant to imply. But your second point here is again countered by the same quote. She doesn't care for her people, at least not as a people which is what we're discussing.

    The quote about her saying she doesn't care if they die pretty much leaves your arguments as moot. This is the problem I've stated before with Sylvanas and the Forsaken, I can understand why people may enjoy playing the villains or bad guys etc etc, but I cannot understand why people feel they need to white wash their actions when they are so clearly selfish and/or wrong. As in this case where she pretty boldly says she doesn't care for her people.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-01-14 at 06:56 PM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    She refers to them as both. However isn't it funny that she very rarely (if ever) calls them a people.

    Against the Infinite
    It's pretty obvious what is implied by "infinite" - the afterlife.
    That does not defy what I said.
    Without her, the Forsaken would probably be "exterminated" within a few years.

    But she still calls them 'her people', which clearly tells us that she does care about them.
    I'm not sure what your first response is meant to imply.
    She is at such an emotional point that she doesn't even care about her own life.
    If she is in such a state that she would kill herself, what gives you the idea that her words have any meaning?

    She felt as if her life had no purpose, her life-work was done.
    And just when she almost died, those Val'Kyr came bothering her about some Forsaken..
    What she said is a "natural" response in such an event.
    But your second point here is again countered by the same quote. She doesn't care for her people, at least not as a people which is what we're discussing.
    And that is countered by panic when she finds out what is about to happen to her people.
    Descriptions given by the writer are stronger and more trustworthy than the ramblings of an emotionally unstable Banshee.
    The quote about her saying she doesn't care if they die pretty much leaves your arguments as moot. This is the problem I've stated before with Sylvanas and the Forsaken, I can understand why people may enjoy playing the villains or bad guys etc etc, but I cannot understand why people feel they need to white wash their actions when they are so clearly selfish and/or wrong. As in this case where she pretty boldly says she doesn't care for her people.
    And the writer says she does care about them.
    Opinion of the all-knowing-writer overrules direct quotes from Sylvanas. That's basic literature.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And that is countered by panic when she finds out what is about to happen to her people.
    What panic!? She does not panic or care at all when she see's what will befall her people. This isn't something that's up to interpretation and you have yet to actually show me a piece of the story that shows her genuinely concerned for her people as your last one was quickly followed by her openly dismissing her people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    She is at such an emotional point that she doesn't even care about her own life.
    If she is in such a state that she would kill herself, what gives you the idea that her words have any meaning?
    What hogwash. In that case everything she said in the story isn't true which you know is BS. At that point it's not a story but a bunch of pointless emotional ramblings.
    If that's also the case the same can be applied to every quote you've given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Descriptions given by the writer are stronger and more trustworthy than the ramblings of an emotionally unstable Banshee.
    And the writer says she does care about them.
    Opinion of the all-knowing-writer overrules direct quotes from Sylvanas. That's basic literature.
    When did Kosak say she cared for the Forsaken as a people?
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-01-14 at 09:08 PM.

  13. #113
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    Why does it matter if she cares a bit about forsaken?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    Why does it matter if she cares a bit about forsaken?
    Because she's their leader?
    It's also showing one of her recent highlighted negatives that being selfishness.

  15. #115
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    I mean how does this help her reputation acroos Azeroth. She still commits the same crimes that we killed Scourge for.

    You know Nurgle loves his children,too.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    What panic!? She does not panic or care at all when she see's what will befall her people. This isn't something that's up to interpretation and you have yet to actually show me a piece of the story that shows her genuinely concerned for her people as your last one was quickly followed by her openly dismissing her people.
    Within the city walls, bonfires raged. Sylvanas seethed; the Alliance was already burning the corpses. No. Wait. She tried to make sense out of the clouded vision. The few Forsaken who remain are throwing themselves into the bonfires, she realized, rather than facing their executioners.

    "This isn't real!" Sylvanas announced, her voice echoing in her head and sounding as it had when she had been alive. Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns. The Forsaken leadership had been gutted. That was what these visions showed.

    That's Sylvanas.. She is caring.
    There is no other way to describe those lines except for a woman that sees something she cares about being destroyed.

    What hogwash. In that case everything she said in the story isn't true which you know is BS. At that point it's not a story but a bunch of pointless emotional ramblings.
    It's not my problem that you want to believe that the crying of a woman that just killed herself is a well thought and rational response.
    Do you know depressed people?
    Do you know people who are suicidal?
    Those people are depressed and frustrated, stuff like that is what they yell all the time.

    This might be a social breakthrough for some people, but upset people often yell things that they don't mean.
    That's often combined with fear, panic or crying.

    When did Kosak say she cared for the Forsaken as a people?
    "This isn't real!" - Why is she refusing to believe that it's real if she doesn't even care about them?
    "Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns." - Why is she yelling 'No No' when she doesn't care?
    "Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!" - Why is she crying if she doesn't care?

    All those responses, all that yelling and crying is caused by emotions.
    Emotions she has when she thinks of her people.

    You're trying to white wash the story with feelings that aren't presented in the story.
    You're trying to attack her by denying the feelings that ARE presented in the story.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-14 at 10:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    I mean how does this help her reputation acroos Azeroth. She still commits the same crimes that we killed Scourge for.
    You know Nurgle loves his children,too.
    That is not true!
    My faction (Horde) kills Scourge because they attacked us.
    Do you really think the Horde gives a shit if some random faction is killing the Alliance? We'd probably help them if they didn't attack us on sight.
    Seeing as Sylvanas isn't killing the Horde, it's all fine.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Well, that won't take long if it takes THREE Val'Kyr tor resurrect her.
    According to the lore, there are only 4 Val'Kyr left and the lesser ones aren't strong enough to resurrect Sylvanas.
    It took 1 val'kyr the first time. I think it only took so many the second time because Godfrey shot her in the head. And what? You don't think she'd sacrifice hundreds of the lesser val'kyr if that's what it took? Or god forbid try to create more herself from human women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Within the city walls, bonfires raged. Sylvanas seethed; the Alliance was already burning the corpses. No. Wait. She tried to make sense out of the clouded vision. The few Forsaken who remain are throwing themselves into the bonfires, she realized, rather than facing their executioners.

    "This isn't real!" Sylvanas announced, her voice echoing in her head and sounding as it had when she had been alive. Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns. The Forsaken leadership had been gutted. That was what these visions showed.

    That's Sylvanas.. She is caring.
    There is no other way to describe those lines except for a woman that sees something she cares about being destroyed.
    I can think of a way. A greedy little girl seeing her works torn down now that she's gone. A child throwing a fit that someone else isn't playing with her pieces the right way after she's quit the game, so now she wan'ts back in because not playing(i.e. going to hell) isn't fun.
    Last edited by Dybia; 2013-01-14 at 09:25 PM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    It took 1 val'kyr the first time. I think it only took so many the second time because Godfrey shot her in the head.
    Good. So one headshot and one throw of a huge tower and she isn't immortal anymore!

    And what? You don't think she'd sacrifice hundreds of the lesser val'kyr if that's what it took? Or god forbid try to create more herself from human women?
    1. We have no proof that lesser Val'Kyr can do that.
    2. She has no "immortality-deal" with them.
    3. We have no proof that she would actually kill hundreds of them.
    4. They don't even know how to make Val'Kyr! But it's allright if she wants to test it on humans, they are the enemy anyway.

    I can think of a way. A greedy little girl seeing her works torn down now that she's gone. A child throwing a fit that someone else isn't playing with her pieces the right way after she's quit the game, so now she wan'ts back in because not playing(i.e. going to hell) isn't fun.
    That a good way of how a guy would look at it.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Within the city walls, bonfires raged. Sylvanas seethed; the Alliance was already burning the corpses. No. Wait. She tried to make sense out of the clouded vision. The few Forsaken who remain are throwing themselves into the bonfires, she realized, rather than facing their executioners.

    "This isn't real!" Sylvanas announced, her voice echoing in her head and sounding as it had when she had been alive. Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns. The Forsaken leadership had been gutted. That was what these visions showed.

    That's Sylvanas.. She is caring.
    There is no other way to describe those lines except for a woman that sees something she cares about being destroyed.
    Or is simply shock, seeing your toolshed getting destroyed has to be a bummer. Her first reaction is that if the Forsaken are that weak. So she doesn't exactly start off as sympathetic. On top of this were she to care about them in this context how do you know it's of them as a people and not simply as a tool she stated they were?
    Or as Dybia pointed out her own shock about her work being undone.

    But as I continue to mention in the same part of the story we dip into her stating she doesn't care for their fate.

    The reason this is getting annoying for myself is that you are providing sources that don't indicate she actually cares for them as a people, meanwhile the paragraph I keep referring specifically says that she doesn't care.

    So even if you were to believe what you've quoted as showing she cares (Which is doesn't) it directly conflicts with a later quote, of which you cannot argue in it's context because it's pretty clear. So at this point we have ourselves a horribly written character who contradicts herself in less than a minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Do you know depressed people?
    Do you know people who are suicidal?
    Those people are depressed and frustrated, stuff like that is what they yell all the time.
    Myself, up until recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    It's not my problem that you want to believe that the crying of a woman that just killed herself is a well thought and rational response.
    This might be a social breakthrough for some people, but upset people often yell things that they don't mean.
    That's often combined with fear, panic or crying.
    Again with this. If what you're saying is truly the case then everything in the story isn't true, which as I said you must know to be hogwash, as otherwise all we have are the emotional ramblings of an Undead Elf. You cannot be serious. It's also great that you can apply the "but she's emotional" card on my arguments and quotes, but not your own.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    "This isn't real!" - Why is she refusing to believe that it's real if she doesn't even care about them?
    "Were her people really so weak? No—no! Garrosh had all but murdered the best of her troops in his own wasteful campaigns." - Why is she yelling 'No No' when she doesn't care?
    "Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!" - Why is she crying if she doesn't care?

    All those responses, all that yelling and crying is caused by emotions.
    Emotions she has when she thinks of her people.
    Ah I thought you meant Kosak actually said that.
    In either case with this refer to the first response with this quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    You're trying to attack her by denying the feelings that ARE presented in the story.
    "She cared nothing for their fate.
    "Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!""


    You can't get much clearer than that. The only person here forcing emotions into the story is yourself. As I've pointed out numerous times this quote debunks your entire argument. It's clear and to the point. It doesn't need any false interpretations like the rest of your quotes, it's short and to the point.
    If you're only argument against this is that she's emotional then you haven't debunked the quote at all but entire story itself along with your own arguments.
    None of your quotes even hint at her caring for them as a people, meanwhile this completely says that she doesn't.

  20. #120
    Interesting observation:

    How did Sylvanas feel when her nemesis, Arthas, killed and then reanimated her as an undead? She was pretty miserable no?
    So what kind of person does that make her, when she kills and then raises as many humans as she possibly can only in order to swell the ranks of her army?
    What does that tell you about those she raises? Are their wills free? Sylvanas hated Arthas with a burning fury for what he did to her, why don't those she has raised feel the same about her? I don't think their minds are free after all. Indeed, the Forsaken as a people are evidence of the huge discrepancy here, they shared Sylvanas'feelings about Arthas to such a degree that they chose her to lead them in their hunt for vengeance.

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