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  1. #121
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanin View Post
    Interesting observation:
    How did Sylvanas feel when her nemesis, Arthas, killed and then reanimated her as an undead? She was pretty miserable no?
    So what kind of person does that make her, when she kills and then raises as many humans as she possibly can only in order to swell the ranks of her army?
    What does that tell you about those she raises? Are their wills free? Sylvanas hated Arthas with a burning fury for what he did to her, why don't those she has raised feel the same about her? I don't think their minds are free after all. Indeed, the Forsaken as a people are evidence of the huge discrepancy here, they shared Sylvanas'feelings about Arthas to such a degree that they chose her to lead them in their hunt for vengeance.
    No, not interesting.
    Because if you read anything about the resurrection of a Forsaken compared to Sylvanas, you'd know that there is a big difference.
    Sylvanas was raised in a way that would cause eternal agony. My Forsaken character doesn't feel like that at all.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD3uiXyh0KE
    Those quotes should explain enough, that's now how the Forsaken feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Or is simply shock, seeing your toolshed getting destroyed has to be a bummer. Her first reaction is that if the Forsaken are that weak. So she doesn't exactly start off as sympathetic. On top of this were she to care about them in this context how do you know it's of them as a people and not simply as a tool she stated they were?
    Or as Dybia pointed out her own shock about her work being undone.
    Her work was to kill Arthas, that is done.
    And still she feels shocked, that's more than just seeing them as tools.
    But as I continue to mention in the same part of the story we dip into her stating she doesn't care for their fate.
    You mean the part where she cried?
    Yeah, I do that all the time.. Crying about people I don't care about.

    The reason this is getting annoying for myself is that you are providing sources that don't indicate she actually cares for them as a people, meanwhile the paragraph I keep referring specifically says that she doesn't care.
    No, the point is that I keep providing sources that indicate she cares and you keep on going "I disagree, because the mentally unstable woman says she doesn't give a shit and we should always believe people like that on their word!"

    So even if you were to believe what you've quoted as showing she cares (Which is doesn't) it directly conflicts with a later quote, of which you cannot argue in it's context because it's pretty clear. So at this point we have ourselves a horribly written character who contradicts herself in less than a minute.
    That's because it's almost impossible to fake a 'sudden shock'.
    She gets confronted with something, she is shocked, can't believe it and feels furious.
    Ten minutes later, they ask her to go back and she cries that she doesn't care.

    Three guesses to what respond is genuine.

    Myself, up until recently.
    It's my job, so I encounter people like that every week.

    Again with this. If what you're saying is truly the case then everything in the story isn't true, which as I said you must know to be hogwash, as otherwise all we have are the emotional ramblings of an Undead Elf. You cannot be serious. It's also great that you can apply the "but she's emotional" card on my arguments and quotes, but not your own.
    That's because I am not going to analyse what she says when she feels emotionally down, but on how she reacts when there is a sudden confrontation.

    "She cared nothing for their fate.
    "Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!""


    You can't get much clearer than that.
    Yes, it can't get much clearer.
    She cried it! She doesn't calmly say it, like a person would if they really didn't care, she cries it.

    None of your quotes even hint at her caring for them as a people, meanwhile this completely says that she doesn't.
    If denial, panic, curiosity and anger don't hint at "caring", than you are really bad at spotting emotions.. Sorry.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Good. So one headshot and one throw of a huge tower and she isn't immortal anymore!


    1. We have no proof that lesser Val'Kyr can do that.
    2. She has no "immortality-deal" with them.
    3. We have no proof that she would actually kill hundreds of them.
    4. They don't even know how to make Val'Kyr! But it's allright if she wants to test it on humans, they are the enemy anyway.


    That a good way of how a guy would look at it.
    We have no proof they can't. If it just takes more to revive her when her brains get blown out, why wouldn't it just take more of the lessers for any other death?

    Then why do they serve her at all? It wasn't just a "Make me immortal" deal she had with them. It was a total obedience deal. They wanted a master whose absolute orders they could follow. Whether that included sacrificing themselves for her or raising hundreds of undead for her.

    No way to make more val'kyr? There were dozens in Andorhal. Doesn't matter if they were lesser val'kyr. The nine that originally made the deal with Sylvanas said they were the LAST val'kyr.

    Also, what does me being a guy have to do with observing Sylvanas acting like a brat when she sees Garrosh breaking her possessions after she just killed herself? She has no emotional connection to these people in the forsaken. The only one that we're supposed to believe she has a real connection to is Nathanos who I don't think we've actually seen with her once. They are THINGS to her. HER things. And she doesn't like Garrosh breaking her things.

  3. #123
    Dreadlord Pisholina's Avatar
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    Would you guys give it a break? I understand your passion about the character, but you are going all-out on each other to prove your point and are, in turn, ignorant enough to not take the opposing opinion any thoughts. Try to think what purpose this whole thread will serve tomorrow? You are pissing one another off, wasting your time trying to convince each other to change their minds when you know that won't happen. Say what you want about Sylvanas, good or bad, and leave it at that. No need to defend your opinion because it is just that, YOUR opinion. Don't force your opinions on other people.
    I. Like. To. Kill. Things.
    For Pony!

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Pisholina View Post
    Would you guys give it a break? I understand your passion about the character, but you are going all-out on each other to prove your point and are, in turn, ignorant enough to not take the opposing opinion any thoughts. Try to think what purpose this whole thread will serve tomorrow? You are pissing one another off, wasting your time trying to convince each other to change their minds when you know that won't happen. Say what you want about Sylvanas, good or bad, and leave it at that. No need to defend your opinion because it is just that, YOUR opinion. Don't force your opinions on other people.
    If that's how you want things, then do that and get out while the rest of us have fun arguing trying to prove points about the character. Because just saying what you think and leaving sounds stupid and boring, and you're being a little dramatic with the "Forcing you views on others" crap. We're discussing lore here. This isn't a face book image of Sylvanas we're supposed to comment on and leave it at that.

  5. #125
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisholina View Post
    passion about the character
    And that is why she's an interesting character. No one in Warcraft was disputed so much, and with such passion, for such a lng time. Wrynn's time in the spotlight is gone, he is just another NPC now, Garrosh changed jobs to another boss, Thrall is green superman in retirement. But Sylvanas still ignites the forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  6. #126
    She HAD a good story. Everything up till cataclysm was very good, the older the better really, as in warcraft 3 and frozen throne. Cataclysm got really silly, cliched and just generally lazy in its writing; MoP utterly and thoroughly raped whatever was left of warcraft lore.

  7. #127
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    She HAD a good story. Everything up till cataclysm was very good, the older the better really, as in warcraft 3 and frozen throne. Cataclysm got really silly, cliched and just generally lazy in its writing; MoP utterly and thoroughly raped whatever was left of warcraft lore.
    IMO, it's the opposite. Up to the end of WotLK it was just a vengeance story, quite obvious and simple. "I'll get you next time, Arthas!" (x10). But the most interesting things happen after the credits. "I won, now what?" - it's the question writers almost never make their characters face. But she faced it. And the outcome was interesting. Some say she's a villain and scream with foam at their mouths that she's shallow and bland (simply because these words are supposed to be insulting), yet the part of playerbase that plays Forsaken understands her choices.
    Last edited by Haven; 2013-01-15 at 12:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  8. #128
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    When Alleria gets back she's gonna team up with Vereesa and kill Sylvanas.

  9. #129
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    IMO, it's the opposite. Up to the end of WotLK it was just a vengeance story, quite obvious and simple. But the most interesting things happen after the credits. "I won, now what?" - it's the question writers almost never make their characters face. But she faced it. And it was interesting.
    Totally agree. I think they've taken her in an interesting direction, still keeping the dark charm alive.

  10. #130
    I am really just hoping for the windrunner sister reunion blizz promised back at blizzcon before cataclsym was released.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    When Alleria gets back she's gonna team up with Vereesa and kill Sylvanas.
    Doubt it not during a burning legion invasion, we don't know what circumstances in which the reunion is going to take place. I seriously doubt blizz is going to kill off Sylvanas if they wanted to they could have killed her off in her short story when she jumped off the cliff. The only way I see Sylvanas dieing is if she started attacking the horde like how Garrosh is doing which she is not going to do because she sees the horde as a safety net. Also she doesn't have a suitable replacement if she was going to die don't you think blizzard would be developing a forsaken with leadership attributes. Besides all these points she share a symbiotic relationship with the forsaken if she goes so do the forsaken as shown in her short story. To think Alleria and Vereesa is going to team up and kill Sylvanas sounds like some serious fan wank. We also don't know how the loss of the sunwell has effected Alleria she could come back as a blood elf after all this time fighting demons.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenedfist View Post
    Doubt it not during a burning legion invasion, we don't know what circumstances in which the reunion is going to take place. I seriously doubt blizz is going to kill off Sylvanas if they wanted to they could have killed her off in her short story when she jumped off the cliff. The only way I see Sylvanas dieing is if she started attacking the horde like how Garrosh is doing which she is not going to do because she sees the horde as a safety net. Also she doesn't have a suitable replacement if she was going to die don't you think blizzard would be developing a forsaken with leadership attributes. Besides all these points she share a symbiotic relationship with the forsaken if she goes so do the forsaken as shown in her short story. To think Alleria and Vereesa is going to team up and kill Sylvanas sounds like some serious fan wank. We also don't know how the loss of the sunwell has effected Alleria she could come back as a blood elf after all this time fighting demons.
    Alleria's husband Turalyon was a paladin. Pretty sure he could use the light to help her through withdrawal the same way Rhonin helped Vareesa with his talents. Their paladin half elf son Arator didn't seem to have any problems.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    When Alleria gets back she's gonna team up with Vereesa and kill Sylvanas.
    Honestly, if they bring Alleria back to turn her into the same sort of worthless brat that the baby in the family is, they'd be doing us all a favor to leave her unaccounted for in the Twisting Nether. I mean, you'd think quite literally tripping the rift for years, probably encountering demons, ethereals, who knows whatever else, would probably have given Alleria enough perspective that she would be a bit more sophisticated.

    Would she approve of Sylvanas' actions in all the years that have gone by since the Third War? No. Would she still realize that it is Sylvanas and she deserves a bit more consideration from her sister? I'd like to think so.

    EDIT: Pretty implausible that Alleria would have made it for years on end without having ever siphoned any living mana source or even fel energy, even with Turalyon there. Funny thing about people who fight side by side across planes and such, they probably aren't always in the best of situations and she may have needed a "hit" without him up to it, or even to save his ass at some point. And it's also all but certain that (if they are consistent about what they said about the eye color) that she would have green eyes.
    Last edited by Stormdash; 2013-01-15 at 01:56 AM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    Alleria's husband Turalyon was a paladin. Pretty sure he could use the light to help her through withdrawal the same way Rhonin helped Vareesa with his talents. Their paladin half elf son Arator didn't seem to have any problems.
    The light is different then arcane, it took silvermoon's smartest and brightest to learn how to siphon the light.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenedfist View Post
    The light is different then arcane, it took silvermoon's smartest and brightest to learn how to siphon the light.
    Yep, and she's no mage. Her gifts are more martial than magical. Would be a pretty big asspull if she is supposed to have cracked the same proverbial code that Kael'thas and his best and brightest did -- and they were drawing it from a Naaru directly, not a third party, before the Sunwell was reignited with/as holy energy.

  16. #136
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenedfist View Post
    The light is different then arcane, it took silvermoon's smartest and brightest to learn how to siphon the light.
    And even then, M'uru had planned to be captured and was, probably at least partially, allowing the Sin'dorei to siphon off of him.

    On the topic of Turalyon and Alleria: There is no reason, outside of fan-service for the Alliance players, that they have any right to be alive. They jumped through a random portal that opened onto a random, presumably Legion controlled, world. Two people, on a planet that has no reason to even have food or any other condition required for them to continue living, and they have been stranded there for ~25 years. 25 years, alone, on an alien world with no help or anything. Why the FUCK would they be alive.
    Last edited by mistuhbull; 2013-01-15 at 02:09 AM.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenedfist View Post
    The light is different then arcane, it took silvermoon's smartest and brightest to learn how to siphon the light.
    Yes, and Turalyon was one of the Alliance's greatest heroes, and one of the first human paladins ever. If a bunch of Silvermoon leeches could figure out how to siphon light energies, I'm pretty sure he could find a way to use it to help his wife's withdrawal.

  18. #138
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    the same way Rhonin helped Vareesa with his talents
    Herds of raptors, rugged good looks, and the Piston of Destruction crossed my mind at once.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 05:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    Yes, and Turalyon was one of the Alliance's greatest heroes, and one of the first human paladins ever. If a bunch of Silvermoon leeches could figure out how to siphon light energies, I'm pretty sure he could find a way to use it to help his wife's withdrawal.
    Translation: knowledge and skill don't matter, because he believes in Light and is so awsum!
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    Yes, and Turalyon was one of the Alliance's greatest heroes, and one of the first human paladins ever. If a bunch of Silvermoon leeches could figure out how to siphon light energies, I'm pretty sure he could find a way to use it to help his wife's withdrawal.
    You are really underestimating silvermoon's mages, they were descendants of the highborne you know the first mages. It is still a possibility that she would return as a blood elf or a felblood after fighting constant waves of demons after all these years.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Herds of raptors, rugged good looks, and the Piston of Destruction crossed my mind at once.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 05:04 AM ----------


    Translation: knowledge and skill don't matter, because he believes in Light and is so awsum!
    Goddammit, lol. Had to bring up the raptor army he brought to fight a bunch of dragons.

    Knowledge and skill? So a bunch of elves going into withdrawal that had been cut off from the light for years know more about the light and how to use it than one of the most veteran paladins of Azeroth? Elves may have taught the arcane to humans, but the humans taught the elves about the light.

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