Thread: Not "Arcane Shotting" enough: Thoughts?

1. When coming onto a thread asking for help, it should be expected that you will be scrutinized to the utmost degree. Some folks will appeal to their personal epeen and emit an internet tough guy approach, others will look at the facts like your logs and be straight up. Preferably the latter, even if it is harsh criticism. Asking for help in a forum, one should have the tough skin to sift through it without reproach. With your history in the forums, it should be easier to recognize those that will give facts and assistance, despite how negative that can be at times. I applaud you for trying to do better, so don't let one declined app sour your juice box.
To answer your OP question, it's one giant math equation. Basic math for the most part. Constants to consider are fight duration, GCD's avail in that time, CD durations, natural focus regen, CS focus regen, etc.
Consider a 5 min fight, which is 300s. That would equate to 300 GCD's. With latency and personal ability to push buttons really fast, that's not really possible. But just follow me for example purposes. Of those 300 GCD's, as BM, 50 should be KC if used immediately when off GCD(300/6s). 50 KC at 40 focus per is 2000 focus needed for the fight duration. That is just one of the GCD's used out of the priority list used during a fight, but as your number 1 priority shot, it's where you can start the equation of what % of a GCD you should be hitting for a fight. Rounded, that is 16.6% out of 100% of the fight should be just KC. Keep in mind this is not to be confused with 16.6% of your damage. Read it as uptime of the "spell" on the target.
So with 250 remaining seconds, you have other GCD's to use and CS to regen focus needed outside of natural focus regen. The equation requires you use all of the data in the logs regarding your CD's, focus regen, BW, etc as your variables. Like I said, it's a giant math problem, and one to use after a fight when looking at your log. That way you can see if you did too much, or too little of an ability during a fight. It's not for everybody, but it can provide the answer to your OP.

2. Originally Posted by danko215
When coming onto a thread asking for help, it should be expected that you will be scrutinized to the utmost degree. Some folks will appeal to their personal epeen and emit an internet tough guy approach, others will look at the facts like your logs and be straight up. Preferably the latter, even if it is harsh criticism. Asking for help in a forum, one should have the tough skin to sift through it without reproach. With your history in the forums, it should be easier to recognize those that will give facts and assistance, despite how negative that can be at times. I applaud you for trying to do better, so don't let one declined app sour your juice box.
To answer your OP question, it's one giant math equation. Basic math for the most part. Constants to consider are fight duration, GCD's avail in that time, CD durations, natural focus regen, CS focus regen, etc.
Consider a 5 min fight, which is 300s. That would equate to 300 GCD's. With latency and personal ability to push buttons really fast, that's not really possible. But just follow me for example purposes. Of those 300 GCD's, as BM, 50 should be KC if used immediately when off GCD(300/6s). 50 KC at 40 focus per is 2000 focus needed for the fight duration. That is just one of the GCD's used out of the priority list used during a fight, but as your number 1 priority shot, it's where you can start the equation of what % of a GCD you should be hitting for a fight. Rounded, that is 16.6% out of 100% of the fight should be just KC. Keep in mind this is not to be confused with 16.6% of your damage. Read it as uptime of the "spell" on the target.
So with 250 remaining seconds, you have other GCD's to use and CS to regen focus needed outside of natural focus regen. The equation requires you use all of the data in the logs regarding your CD's, focus regen, BW, etc as your variables. Like I said, it's a giant math problem, and one to use after a fight when looking at your log. That way you can see if you did too much, or too little of an ability during a fight. It's not for everybody, but it can provide the answer to your OP.
This made a lot of sense, thank you.

3. Some of these replies are really disappointing. Do you guys really want the next noob who thinks to himself 'Hmm I just hit 90.... BM or Surv? I can't ask the people at MMO Champ, they're so elitist'. There are people here who haven't cleared full normals, people who simply can't play BM/SV/MM, people who are already in full 509s with 16/16 HC... and the reason this mix works is because people don't shit on each other for no reason. By all means, point out mistakes... but don't be rude about it. There's really no reason to be angry at someone for not performing well. If you're upset at the fact that he/she called a guild elitist and was unjustified, that's no reason to say 'you're a bad player/you suck/etc etc'. People are allowed to make mistakes/miss obvious things/stand around for no reason in a fight/whatever.

@Barberry: What terrokar said is very very important. Mash your keys. Mash constantly or get a Logitech keyboard to do the mashing for you. Notice in the vid how kripp says you need to know what you're going to do 2 globals before you do it? That's the cornerstone of focus management. If KC is coming up in 1.5 seconds, I have 45 focus and all my focus dumps but arcane shot are on CD, I will cast a Cobra Shot because it will give me focus without capping, allow me to use my KC on CD, and keep some base focus to use for GT if it comes off CD shortly after. If you're having trouble dealing with both the CD stacking of BM and all this anticipation training, I'd recommend switching to SV until you get a better handle on things. SV is just keep everything on CD. If at low focus mash Cobra Shot. If at high focus mash arcane shot. If anything else comes off CD, press it. GG.

4. Originally Posted by gulder
Some of these replies are really disappointing. Do you guys really want the next noob who thinks to himself 'Hmm I just hit 90.... BM or Surv? I can't ask the people at MMO Champ, they're so elitist'. There are people here who haven't cleared full normals, people who simply can't play BM/SV/MM, people who are already in full 509s with 16/16 HC... and the reason this mix works is because people don't shit on each other for no reason. By all means, point out mistakes... but don't be rude about it. There's really no reason to be angry at someone for not performing well. If you're upset at the fact that he/she called a guild elitist and was unjustified, that's no reason to say 'you're a bad player/you suck/etc etc'. People are allowed to make mistakes/miss obvious things/stand around for no reason in a fight/whatever.

@Barberry: What terrokar said is very very important. Mash your keys. Mash constantly or get a Logitech keyboard to do the mashing for you. Notice in the vid how kripp says you need to know what you're going to do 2 globals before you do it? That's the cornerstone of focus management. If KC is coming up in 1.5 seconds, I have 45 focus and all my focus dumps but arcane shot are on CD, I will cast a Cobra Shot because it will give me focus without capping, allow me to use my KC on CD, and keep some base focus to use for GT if it comes off CD shortly after. If you're having trouble dealing with both the CD stacking of BM and all this anticipation training, I'd recommend switching to SV until you get a better handle on things. SV is just keep everything on CD. If at low focus mash Cobra Shot. If at high focus mash arcane shot. If anything else comes off CD, press it. GG.
Thanks. Yes, I watched the video and spent a good deal of time on dummies today (I have a form of dyslexia if this helps).

The ironic part in all this was I spoke to the guy in-game and he said he never posts on MMO: someone else posted the interview transcript under a new account and used his name (for people not aware of what happened). We're actually BT friends now and doing a logged LFR run together to see if I can get something that isn't a pug or hours of wipefests to compare and contrast.

5. I'm just wondering what the heck are you doing if your not getting focus cap while using cd's

6. Originally Posted by Janir
I'm just wondering what the heck are you doing if your not getting focus cap while using cd's
Ok: I was spamming ArS so much, that I was missing other shots and not gaining enough focus to use them on tap. So, I tried to reduce the amt of ArS shots I was doing to see if that was the issue itself, or whether it was something else.

Does that make sense?

7. Originally Posted by Barberry
Ok: I was spamming ArS so much, that I was missing other shots and not gaining enough focus to use them on tap. So, I tried to reduce the amt of ArS shots I was doing to see if that was the issue itself, or whether it was something else.

Does that make sense?
Arcane shot has the lowest priority if Cobra Shot isn't counted.
Priority for BM:
Serpent Sting
Kill Command
Glaive Toss
Dire Beast
a Murder of Crows
Focus Fire(5 stacks and if BW CD has 20 secs or more to go)
Arcane Shot(if Focus > 60)
Cobra Shot

You can substitute aMoC for Lynx Rush until you are better at handling Focus usage. As you can see, ArS is the last thing you really want to do if none of the other abilities aren't available.

It is very important to not use FF during or near BW, your pet will GREATLY benefit from the increased Attack speed compared to you.

8. Originally Posted by Tehterokkar
Arcane shot has the lowest priority if Cobra Shot isn't counted.
Priority for BM:
Serpent Sting
Kill Command
Glaive Toss
Dire Beast
a Murder of Crows
Focus Fire(5 stacks and if BW CD has 20 secs or more to go)
Arcane Shot(if Focus > 60)
Cobra Shot

You can substitute aMoC for Lynx Rush until you are better at handling Focus usage. As you can see, ArS is the last thing you really want to do if none of the other abilities aren't available.

It is very important to not use FF during or near BW, your pet will GREATLY benefit from the increased Attack speed compared to you.
You forgot kill shot but it's right there with kill command and the best way to deal with FF is to use it after BW.

9. Originally Posted by Barberry
Ok: I was spamming ArS so much, that I was missing other shots and not gaining enough focus to use them on tap. So, I tried to reduce the amt of ArS shots I was doing to see if that was the issue itself, or whether it was something else.

Does that make sense?
In general, never just spam AS unless you're in BW. AS is meant to prevent you from focus capping, CoS is meant to give you focus to pull off your signatures. AS is used because you have nothing else to do, Cobra will cap your focus, and focus spent on a damaging attack is better spent than on nothing at all. You're not meant to go 'Hey, a full focus bar and a no CD damaging ability! AS SPAM MODE ON!'

10. If they declined you because of "not enough arcane", just tell them to fuck themselves. There's so many factors that go into how many arcane we can pump out. The biggest thing is your activity, overall dps (are you within the range of their other dps), and are you able to stay alive?

Going through someone's log and finding every little detail as to why they're not the best player is the wrong way to do it. If you do 105k dps and their hunter is doing 110k dps in similar gear, then you are most likely perfectly fine. The amount of arcane shots can vary significantly depending on haste, procs, or even mechanics (did I get targeted more than someone else).

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 07:53 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Tehstool
You forgot kill shot but it's right there with kill command and the best way to deal with FF is to use it after BW.
There is an actual point (according to simcraft) where depending on haste/mastery/crit you stop using focus fire, and on fights where your pet can get more uptime.

11. Originally Posted by Libertarian
If they declined you because of "not enough arcane", just tell them to fuck themselves. There's so many factors that go into how many arcane we can pump out. The biggest thing is your activity, overall dps (are you within the range of their other dps), and are you able to stay alive?

There is an actual point (according to simcraft) where depending on haste/mastery/crit you stop using focus fire, and on fights where your pet can get more uptime.
About the only thing I have going for me is that I tend to not die a lot. :/
That's pretty much the only reason I find so many pugs.

Total deaths 5,184 (granted I didn't play in Cata - just wotlk and now)

12. Originally Posted by Barberry
About the only thing I have going for me is that I tend to not die a lot. :/
That's pretty much the only reason I find so many pugs.

Total deaths 5,184 (granted I didn't play in Cata - just wotlk and now)
well honestly, no offense but it seems you are not DPSing half the fight so if you were not attacking and dieing that would be really bad...

13. Originally Posted by Nemesis003
well honestly, no offense but it seems you are not DPSing half the fight so if you were not attacking and dieing that would be really bad...
God, I wish I could just delete that log - I mean in general overall. I don't even know where 90% of them came from, since a good portion of these raids on my wow heroes thing weren't even raid groups I joined. I keep just getting flooded with them. I only say this, because I know who I pug with.

14. Originally Posted by Libertarian
If they declined you because of "not enough arcane", just tell them to fuck themselves. There's so many factors that go into how many arcane we can pump out. The biggest thing is your activity, overall dps (are you within the range of their other dps), and are you able to stay alive?

Going through someone's log and finding every little detail as to why they're not the best player is the wrong way to do it. If you do 105k dps and their hunter is doing 110k dps in similar gear, then you are most likely perfectly fine. The amount of arcane shots can vary significantly depending on haste, procs, or even mechanics (did I get targeted more than someone else).

---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 07:53 AM ----------

There is an actual point (according to simcraft) where depending on haste/mastery/crit you stop using focus fire, and on fights where your pet can get more uptime.
It's just best to use it right after BW.

In regards to the arcane shot thing, you are cobra shotting a bit too much and not using arcane shot enough. I looked at protectors and a number of other logs that weren't from your testing.

This is probably what you need.

Also how are you setting up your BM opener? that has an impact on how many arcane shots you use.

As posted in many other threads I've came into

Here is the opener I do with the 4 piece

Prepot
AMoC
SrS
Dire Beast
RF
Stampede
BW
KC
GT
AS x4
KC
KC
GT
Cobra x2 so I don't need to waste a GCD reapplying SrS
AS
KC
AS x3
(BW wears off)
DB
BW
KC
AS

Then when I need to refresh SrS I pop RF and CS twice.

Also try to cobra shot a bit more before going into BW so you can spam arcane shot more. Just be wary about capping/delaying your abilities.

15. Originally Posted by Libertarian
If they declined you because of "not enough arcane", just tell them to fuck themselves. There's so many factors that go into how many arcane we can pump out. The biggest thing is your activity, overall dps (are you within the range of their other dps), and are you able to stay alive?
Did you actually look at any of his logs. No offence, everyone has to start somewhere, but on 8 minute Blade Lord attempts (in which he was alive the whole time) he did 5 arcane shots. I generally fire off more than 5 arcane shots during my first BW.

16. Yeah it's the sad truth of asking for help on a forum unfortunately, You ask for help, and you will get some help, but you will also get several people replying with "I'm better than you, here's why." Don't take it personally, nature of the beast. Time for some sifting.

17. Originally Posted by Glurp
Did you actually look at any of his logs. No offence, everyone has to start somewhere, but on 8 minute Blade Lord attempts (in which he was alive the whole time) he did 5 arcane shots. I generally fire off more than 5 arcane shots during my first BW.
Did you expect people to be straight up here when someone taking every opportunity to point out that they're a girl asks the question? Too many hormonally charged idiots and white-knights around, coupled with a poster with paper-thin skin and a pig-headed attitude (Ironic, since she asks for help).

18. Originally Posted by Glurp
Did you actually look at any of his logs. No offence, everyone has to start somewhere, but on 8 minute Blade Lord attempts (in which he was alive the whole time) he did 5 arcane shots. I generally fire off more than 5 arcane shots during my first BW.
Did you even read their post? My post sums it up.

Originally Posted by Tehstool
They lowered their arcane shot usage to see how they could manage their focus, granted they went overboard and really didn't use AS at all. However, I'd say a dummy or LFR is the way to go for this.
They INTENTIONALLY didn't use arcane shot. It's not like they were trying to use it that attempt.

19. Originally Posted by gulder
If you're having trouble dealing with both the CD stacking of BM and all this anticipation training, I'd recommend switching to SV until you get a better handle on things.
You're a BM hero?
You seem to forget that SV has to do the exact same anticipation on ES and BA. You also forget that both specs have to do this anticipation for GT. Same with alligning cds and trinkets for both specs. SV on the other hand also has to work with procs and has to manage multidotting which isn't always as easy as on wind lord. Actually wind lord is the only fight where I can play relaxed.

The difference with BM is the harder pull cooldown rotation and an annoying pet. SV is harder during the whole of the fight.
People who can't play SV are best suggested to go BM. People who can't play BM are best suggested to put an extra bar with pull rotation on their screen.

20. Originally Posted by Tehstool
They INTENTIONALLY didn't use arcane shot. It's not like they were trying to use it that attempt.
Intentionally playing your class incorrectly on trial for a guild and complaining when you get declined. I don't get it... It takes 2 seconds of testing to see that Arcane Shot is much higher damage than spamming Cobra at focus cap, and as I said in my first post his excuse of "trying to get more Kill Commands" makes no sense as he only used it every 10 seconds despite it having a 6 second cooldown, even though you should easily be able to get Kill Command on cooldown and have a good number of Arcane Shots.

There's really no defending him. I'm sorry but he screwed up big time doing something stupid on trial and got declined, nothing special here.

Originally Posted by StijnDP
SV is harder during the whole of the fight.
I personally find Survival very easy to play throughout the whole fight, whereas BM has a much stricter use of cooldowns. The only time when SV gives me a minor issue is if Black Arrow, Explosive Shot, Glaive Toss and AMoC are coming off cooldown around similar times meaning I have to either delay the lower priority spells slightly or sit on capped focus for a few seconds.

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