Why Guild Applications are becoming a thing of the past

[Beefhamer]

A lot of guilds are in a bad place these days and from what I've read here and there don't really seem to understand why. Overly strict requirements are a part of it; keeping your place in the raid more by fear and performance than anything else is another. This is pretty much what a lot of guild culture has become among the wannabe progression guilds. It's a tough system and it wasn't a huge surprise to me that those that enjoy raiding for what it is--beating bosses in large groups--migrated to the less-than-optimal fields of LFR once it was available.

Guilds in general need to rethink their culture a bit. It should be more about teamwork, teamwork implying a game and fun, instead of some military-style dictatorship in which you get ruthlessly cut if you don't measure up. Helping people get better is usually easier than constantly recruiting. That gets to guild applications and overly strenuous requirements where an alternate approach of expansion into multiple teams with an emphasis on improving people and perhaps starting some friendly progression competition in the guild itself would be more helpful and likely more fun. This is not to say that guild applications are not useful; they are. But the stringent requirements to be able to be raid-ready on day 1 or you suck probably filters out a lot of decent players that could use some help up.

I don't know that this could ever happen because it's really a culture that can only work in a mature, adult, drama-free environment. Nonetheless this is how a lot of real-life companies work: investing in your team is always better than constantly replacing it.

Just my two cents on it. I did the progression thing during Wrath, dropped out of it for Cataclysm and am not really all that interested in going back into that system as it stands now.

I understand that feeling wholeheartedly, that is why my wife and I pursued a progression guild that was about fun. All it took was some realm forum posts and a vent chat to get in to one of the best guilds on our server (she had only been playing for a few months and had never raided). There are plenty of fun minded, teamwork oriented, progression guilds out there. They may not be world first or server first guilds, but they focus on downing content while it is relevant and can get the job done without all the crap that usually around.

In Vanilla I was part of and lead one of those strict guilds, and it was fun for a while when learning MC, BWL, and the rest up to Naxx since online guides and strats really were not that common. You really needed to focus to figure out how to beat them, even though they were simple raids compared to now. But today attitudes are different, and guilds need to recognize this. If they did they would not be on forums complaining about how Blizzard needs to do something to save them from themselves.

[Granyala]

We do also. We aren't by any means Saints but your general attitude is a reflection on the guild and therefore you have to be cautious.

Agreed. If our members appear insulting and rude -> less people interested in us -> harder to replace people that leave.

[Voyager]

We do also. We aren't by any means Saints but your general attitude is a reflection on the guild and therefore you have to be cautious.

How so? Considering the person in question wasn't even in their guild when he fought against the trolls, it was hardly a valid reason to decline him. He's of the opinion that he doesn't have to take crap from anyone, and fights back.

[Holo]

Applications are nowhere near as good as a direct, personal interview over voice with said person. It might take a bit more time, but it is definitely the best way to learn about who someone is and what they do. After that, all that lasts is a practical performance test. Which is done within the doors of a relevant instance.

[Yggdrasil]

I think of it as a way to HELP see who a person is without someone spending 25/50 bucks (server transfer/faction transfer) to find out. I also think it is a way for individuals to find out if they really want to apply to that particular guild. If filling out that application doesn't seem to fit for you then it is a good chance that you won't end up really liking the raiding there. I know one guild I was in for a while used it as an effort meter to see how much someone would put into the joining process, and not to mention a form that gives them all the easy to reach links like armory, WoLs, and other things that any progressing guild will generally want to see 'hard facts' on outside of word of mouth. Another guild I was in had this MASSIVE application that didn't mean a thing outside of appearance because if on their page it said, "need resto druid" and a resto druid applied they were as good as in. Of course they couldn't totally derp the app or vent interview but honestly their bar was pretty low on what derps really were.

At the end of the day I think unless a guild is REALLY picky about their player base, or have TONs of apps that they need to work though the application process to weed out derps then it is pretty much over board in 9/10 guilds out there. I personally would NEVER join a guild without an application but I don't expect to fill out a life time story that is 2-3 pages long. For me it comes down to these things:

1. Character name, level, class, role
-obvious reasons so you know the who, whats, and wheres of what is apping compared to what you need
2. Armory Link
-it helps to see if they understand how to gem, how to enchant, how to talent, what off specs might be, effort put into toon
3. WoL Link
-It helps a lot to see if they know their rotations, can stay out of the fire, and all those other raid things
4. Basic guild history
-Someone that has been in 200 guilds in the past year likely won't stick around but it lets you ask good safe questions
5. Basic raiding history/experience
-Not that important but knowing someone has raided in the past helps a lot in them understanding raiding now -- lowest weighted question imo.
6. Why do you want to join us?
-Gives them a chance to explain why they think them and your guild are a good fit. Shows interest in guild beyond "you get purps i cannot get"
7. Do you understand our rules, raid times, and expectations?
-A safety question. So when rules are violated or they don't show up they cannot play the "well I didn't know" card.
8. Anything else you would like to add to help us know you?
-A good open ended question that lets people add what they like. Maybe explain where they are at and why. Explain their personality. Whatever really.

Without a doubt I think some guilds go WAY to far in trying to appear something they aren't with an application. Appearance isn't as important as substance but most people don't understand that and that is why usually those guilds are ALWAYS recruiting because once they get beyond the artist painting of the guild it becomes a shit hole and they bounce. I also totally agree that their are TONS and TONS of pugs out there with amazing potential and they shouldn't be dumped on. But a PUG can start up his own WoL and make a parse for a link. Blizzard gives you an armory link, and gearing and gems, and enchants should be easy enough to get right with the web. All these things do is prove you can play without much effort. At the end of the day though I think the voice interview is the most important part of any app. Talking to someone will tell you a lot about them. The application gives you something to talk about and discuss in game wise. So the two should be used together in my opinion.

[MarizzaDraenor]

How so? Considering the person in question wasn't even in their guild when he fought against the trolls, it was hardly a valid reason to decline him. He's of the opinion that he doesn't have to take crap from anyone, and fights back.

Well a player that stays in my head as an idiot that spams trade 24/7 or as that annoying person that spams general inside the raid zones making fun of and flaming other guilds and players has a pretty good chance of being a prick in general and carrying that attitude to their next guild.

I prefer to remember someone from their sick logs or as nice persons that i have played with in pugs then for problematic behavior.

[Voyager]

Well a player that stays in my head as an idiot that spams trade 24/7 or as that annoying person that spams general inside the raid zones making fun of and flaming other guilds and players has a pretty good chance of being a prick in general and carrying that attitude to their next guild.

I prefer to remember someone from their sick logs or as nice persons that i have played with in pugs then for problematic behavior.

Big difference between a spammer and someone who just tells off trolls. Since obviously the trolls initiated the attack by their act of trolling trade.

[brok3nh3lix]

It's an exception then. The majority of other raid focused guilds have strict policies on not keeping people around if they feel that they underperform.
On this backwater realm they even care more about ridiculous things like trade chat conduct and Lfd dungeon conduct than anything else, even if the person in question is a top performing player. A former guild officer of my guild was declined by another guild on the sole basis of trade chat incidents alone.

I would reject some one as well if they were a known jerks or trolls in trade chat and to other players, I don't care how well they play. Chances are they will bring some of that into the guild, create drama, as leader is probably get whispers from players about it, and it just looks bad on the guild as a whole, possibly even driving away other recruits because that guy is in our guild. Simply not worth the Hassel.

[Cerebrate]

This is purely on a guild by guild bases. My guild has a very reasonable app and if it looks good they ask to chat with you in mumble. Then if they accept you it's a very short trial period.

[MarizzaDraenor]

Big difference between a spammer and someone who just tells off trolls. Since obviously the trolls initiated the attack by their act of trolling trade.

Well on WoW unfortunately if you are in a mood you can fight all day long for various reasons the temptations are to many. Its better to learn and ignore some things then to let them get to you.

If you dont have anything good to say dont say anything etc.

I mean if you cant handle and ignore the trolls on trade chat and they do manage to get to your nerves how are you going to cope with 300-400+ wipes on Ragnaros heroic? You ll pull a gun out and start shooting people haha.

[rowaasr13]

This just shows how ignorant someone can be. Compare the mechanics back in Vanilla to a raid today. Even Stone Guard is more complicated then Ragnaros. It's like asking Microsoft for a job when the last time I worked with computers was 6 years ago.

I had this happen to me. Even class leader of target guild confirmed that my grasp of class is good and the only thing missing is some gear and number of boss kills (as mentioned higher in thread I look for guild precisely beacuse my work schedule makes me pretty much unable to PUG, so I simply can't progress without stable team raiding at same time that I can), but some higher officer placed decline override with "didn't raid in vanilla". Well, at least I had a good laugh.

[brok3nh3lix]

The best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. They are trying to get a reaction out if you.

[TreezusSaves]

Applications are nowhere near as good as a direct, personal interview over voice with said person. It might take a bit more time, but it is definitely the best way to learn about who someone is and what they do. After that, all that lasts is a practical performance test. Which is done within the doors of a relevant instance.

Good in theory, not in practice. Not enough hours in the day for personal interviews. WoL helps weed people out, where you can then do second-level testing and interviews.

[Butler Log]

Good in theory, not in practice. Not enough hours in the day for personal interviews. WoL helps weed people out, where you can then do second-level testing and interviews.

Oh, to be in the position to not have enough time to personally interview appkicants ...

[Granyala]

Big difference between a spammer and someone who just tells off trolls. Since obviously the trolls initiated the attack by their act of trolling trade.

Actually: No. It's not. Both of them spam the channel with useless squabbling and prevent it from being used according to its function. (a.k.a. TRADE stuff, or in LFR: to communicate tactics)

Trolls need to be ignored, i know it's tough to do, I love to embarrass them now and then, but one has to know when to stop.

[Holo]

Good in theory, not in practice. Not enough hours in the day for personal interviews. WoL helps weed people out, where you can then do second-level testing and interviews.

You don't have to interview everyone. You can make a short list application which should be sufficient to thin the interviews needed by a division of ten.

[Wildtree]

Applications are nowhere near as good as a direct, personal interview over voice with said person. It might take a bit more time, but it is definitely the best way to learn about who someone is and what they do. After that, all that lasts is a practical performance test. Which is done within the doors of a relevant instance.

That's true. Run an instance, screw things up purposely during the run, and see how the player adjusts. A simple 5man-H can reveal a lot about a player.
Applications can help guilds to sort out whom to interview. But I believe that's only needed when there's a lot of people who want to join for a core raid spot.

Generally I think it's a lot more effective to let people join the guild. Make it a requirement for someone who is interested in raiding, that they have to be a guild member for at least 3 weeks, until they can move into the raider group. During that time their social interaction with the other players can be evaluated.
Someone could be the best raider a guild can have, if they lack on social levels, it can have a devastating effect.
This goes the other way around too... A guild can offer someone as much progress as they can possibly get. but if it's a guild of assbags, then many players don't wanna put up with that.

All in all, Apps are okay, but they are certainly just a small part of the whole picture.

[Socialhealer]

I most certainly did pug my Tribute to Insanity and Glory achievements: Your point?

i was going to say, bullshit u can pug insanity....then i saw lol 10man....10mans back then was designed to be pugged, only since cata have 10mans had some difficulty.

[OhHerro]

I am the hunter that rejected his application to my guild that made him write this long "guild recruitment is dumb and outdated" thread. Below is a conversation taken directly from our application forum.


Me responding to his application
Looking at your logs, why dont you use Arcane Shot like at all? For example your Blade Lord Normal Kill you linked was 7:39 seconds long and you used Arcane Shot 7 times for a total of 278,433 damage, where our Heroic Blade Lord kill was 12 seconds shorter and I used Arcane Shot 94 times for a total of 4,433,714 damage. As I look at your other kills its the same story, you have sub 10 Arcane Shots across an entire fight when you should actually be doing 10 times that many in a fight. This tells me that you don't really understand shot priority, or the fact that focus capping is very very bad. What do you use to keep from focus capping?
Reply · Delete · 18 hours ago

Barberry
I do understand shot priority: Which is why I've been weaning myself off of ArS usage. Part of the reason for this, is because I was pumping out way too many ArS shots before and in turn losing out on KC's which in turn was hurting my set bonus.

Last week is really the first time I've gone cold turkey over the whole thing, and I did notice that I wasn't focus capping as much as I expected I would be. I do understand ArS's role in preventing focus capping, but from what I understand it's also filler priority. I find the loss of KC's due to overuse to be a much bigger problem, so I have worked on taking steps to fix said problem.

Also, we didn't do normal last week: These logs should be from Heroic Blade Lord. :/


Melebris
Meant Heroic, not Normal. Anyways, what are you using to stop from focus capping during CD usage? Also, here's a link to one of the top Hunters in the world doing Heroic Blade Lord. Click on the damage done by spell and you'll see Arcane Shot doing 21.6% of his personal damage and he used it 88 times in a 6:52 long fight. Arcane might be a "filler shot" but filler doesn't mean you just don't use it.


This guy has no clue how to play a hunter and then posts on forums trashing a guild recruitment process. It's laughable...

[TreezusSaves]

You don't have to interview everyone. You can make a short list application which should be sufficient to thin the interviews needed by a division of ten.

So, you're advocating the use of applications as a means of filtering applicants? We're not so different, you and I.