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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Barberry View Post
    What I am suggesting is that mid-level guilds actually take more care in screening applicants. I am also suggesting more interaction, with less elitism.
    I agree so much with this. I don't know what make people being so elitist these days. Raiding is a lot easier, playing the game too.
    Last edited by Marchen; 2013-01-15 at 01:22 AM.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by PetersenIII View Post
    If they're not judging me for it why the fuck is it on their application form?!
    The rule of thumb is they're not judging you because your specs are alright. Else you wouldn't apply, you'd know your apply would be denied, and it'd be an utter waste of time. What they're merely doing is verifying.

    What it is meant for is to weed out the dumbfucks who are playing on an old rig with 2 FPS. Nowadays they're a rare breed though.

    They're also making sure you know what you are playing with, are able to look this up, and that it is good enough. It is relevant for 25m guilds and top end, but also even less serious guilds. You don't want to have a fellow in your raid who's having overheating issues. If they didn't state they had these issues in their app they held back important information about themselves which means gkick or social status.

    Personally, I always need to look up what my specs are when someone asks because it isn't even something I obsess about or remember (I completely laugh at all the spec linking in sigs, calling it ricer and epeen). I am well past that age. Also, as a 10m raider my settings are optimized for 10m quality raiding. If I am going to do Sha or LFR my FPS won't be high enough for my own standards. I can either live with it, or lower my graphics settings. I generally opt for the former, I don't care much about my performance in either of these settings. If I were to join a 25m raiding guild I'd certainly adapt beforehand by lowering my graphics settings (also because I want good logs). Actually, more likely I'd spend some money and upgrade computer parts.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 02:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Peng View Post
    It´s a question of supply and demand. Times have changed. There are more raid slots to fill than people willing to apply. All guilds with an incomplete roster will need to rethink.
    Easily solved: Disband and dissolve. Everyone tries to fit in the spots which are open like LEGO.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 03:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    A player who plays one spec to near perfection but has no clue about how to play the other 2 specs can hardly be considered a bad player.
    Depends. In 10m it can be important. If you got good alternatives you can stick the spriest with shadow and let the shaman use their off spec instead. Then, when required, said shaman would be able to go healing. If that shaman has good attendance, the priest can stick to shadow (which he's very good at). There's no problem. But if nobody can reliably fill that spot of off healing you may be better off with an spriest who is able to play their off spec well.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 03:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    Why is that sad? It's actually a good point either the difficulty of tier 14, or the reduction in raiding guilds.

    [...]
    Completely neglecting LFR. Newsflash: for some people, LFR is more than enough. They don't have to do Normal to see the content. LFR is just fine. They didn't have the option of seeing the content and doing LFR in 4.0 or 4.2. So it simply isn't fair to completely ignore LFR out of the equation (as laughable as you may find the difficulty of LFR).

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 03:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    [...]

    If you can just suck it up, I'm sure you can get through the vent interview, and whatever other hoops they want.
    Even if you do not get through the vent interview, try to learn from it. If you get refused by someone for something (job, relationship you name it) you gotta suck it up. You can just move on, but you can also -where appropriate- learn from it and take those teachings in your next interview. We already do this, because we're learning every day, but I still want to underline you can do it more proactive and be more aware of it.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Completely neglecting LFR. Newsflash: for some people, LFR is more than enough. They don't have to do Normal to see the content. LFR is just fine. They didn't have the option of seeing the content and doing LFR in 4.0 or 4.2. So it simply isn't fair to completely ignore LFR out of the equation (as laughable as you may find the difficulty of LFR).
    Not neglecting it, I just hadn't considered it at the time of posting. LFR undoubtedly had an impact on those who wanted to raid, and were "forced" to be in 25 man or 10 man guilds. Now they can "see" the content at their own pace.

  4. #604
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    I loved writing guild applications in TBC/Wotlk

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Ok 13 pages and am i REALLY one of the only ones to see that all you hardcore hyper progress based guild guys are basically not getting it.

    I for one am fine with where i am in game TBH i enjoy teaching new players more then i do raiding. Thing is the OP is TRYING to point out that ALOT of mediocre to downright bad guilds are going app nuts. And not even trying to help newer players.

    As a guy who was going no heirloom for a time trust me when i say the environment for new players/no heirlooms is pretty vile. From a monk only lacking weapon heirlooms dissing the new players i was teaching(they DID have horrid DPS but i talked to em ALL individually anout how to improve AND THEY HAVE) and barely doung more than me as a brewmaster. To a group of buddies leveling a guys enchanting by needing EVERYTHING and saying he "needs" for enchanting.

    And those are pre BC content and i DO have more. To new player who put up with ALL of this yeah they might not know the sites so you tell/help them. You NUTURE new talent by the gods i have a friend who i can tell you now will be an insanely good player better than i ever will be i suspect. But mighta quit had nice people not been there.

    Now here is the thing. Low-mid end raid guilds really shouldn't be so pucky. You CANNOT learn the same stuff through leveling anymore that we once did. The days of dying to wandering elites or walking into a place full of them are gone. Instances by and large are tank and spank and by the time they get into heroics enough people are geared that no strategy is needed and thus don't learn one reason healers aside i try and take it slow even at low levels.

    Now these people might hear about a raid guild and ask to join. Why not ask them in whisper real quick what they've done. Or even just run a random group with em. Just get a feel. I mean yeah we ALL get why top tier guilds need it. But when the majority of guilds do this it's just ludicrous.

    It's like if say a Popeyes asked for a 20 page resume, background check, full body physical, CAT scan and ALL of this stuff. I mean they're not the feds or even Microsoft what does it matter.

    Again TOP GUILDS ARE GOING TO ASK FOR APPS!!!! And people will GLADLY do it. But when local normal mode guild #14365 does it ot's kinda silly.

    So yeah i think the REAL point is that apps are getting out of control and that newer/lessucky players get kibda screwed over evrn if they have GREAT potential.
    No, many of us get it, but do not agree.

    Your stories are great, too bad all of us had those moments. People did the same shit in Vanilla dude.

    What you are missing: Its THEIR GUILD, so they can be as PICKY as they like.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 12:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Marchen View Post
    I agree so much with this. I don't know what make people being so elitist these days. Raiding is a lot easier, playing the game too.
    Stop screaming Elitism all the time... using apps =/= elitism.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Barberry View Post
    What I am suggesting is that mid-level guilds actually take more care in screening applicants. I am also suggesting more interaction, with less elitism.
    How, without spending an enormous amount of time with every candidate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barberry View Post
    While WOL's gives you a nice idea, you also should keep in mind that not ALL pugs go according to plan. Logs cannot always tell you the number of various circumstances that occur within such encounters.
    Why would you upload a log if it didn't show you in a good light?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 05:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Marchen View Post
    I agree so much with this. I don't know what make people being so elitist these days. Raiding is a lot easier, playing the game too.
    The world's serious progression raiders pretty much agreed back in Cataclysm that the raid content was more challenging than ever. Haven't read their opinion on the first tier of MoP but it sure seemed tough from what I was watching. Don't judge HM raiding by the standards of NM raiding, it's not the same thing at all.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 05:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Weren't subs higher going into Cata? *shrug*. This tier is pretty great too but I had more fun in T11 with the exception of a few bosses.
    Pretty much steady last I looked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  7. #607
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    No, many of us get it, but do not agree.

    Your stories are great, too bad all of us had those moments. People did the same shit in Vanilla dude.

    What you are missing: Its THEIR GUILD, so they can be as PICKY as they like.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 12:38 AM ----------



    Stop screaming Elitism all the time... using apps =/= elitism.


    Then you were on a shit server or something because i don't recall alot of that shit from vanilla.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Then you were on a shit server or something because i don't recall alot of that shit from vanilla.
    Or you didn't play at the time. Or you were too naive to remember it.

    My server was old, and yes there were still trolls in Vanilla. Where do you think the term "loot ninja" came from? Rogues needing on lockboxes saying "I need for lock picking!" and the like .... yes, common everywhere in vanilla.

    Regardless, my server has nothing to do with this topic.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    How, without spending an enormous amount of time with every candidate?
    Why would you upload a log if it didn't show you in a good light?
    No log would equate to automatic denial. I guess bad logs would as well, but at least it's something. Actually, my wow Heroes seems to have a ton of logs that have my name included, but raids I never even participated in: I'm not even sure how to remove that, since these weren't even raids I've done.

  10. #610
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Or you didn't play at the time. Or you were too naive to remember it.

    My server was old, and yes there were still trolls in Vanilla. Where do you think the term "loot ninja" came from? Rogues needing on lockboxes saying "I need for lock picking!" and the like .... yes, common everywhere in vanilla.

    Regardless, my server has nothing to do with this topic.
    Oh i know loot ninjas and huntards. And i was there. i started october 19th october 2005. Was a major alt whore as well. Leveling didn't have as many crazies in some ways.

    But they also got called out on it and marked as such. Wasn't the same sorta problem. And group wise as long as it wasn't the leader they weren't kick proof by having buddies.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Oh i know loot ninjas and huntards. And i was there. i started october 19th october 2005. Was a major alt whore as well. Leveling didn't have as many crazies in some ways.

    But they also got called out on it and marked as such. Wasn't the same sorta problem. And group wise as long as it wasn't the leader they weren't kick proof by having buddies.
    You're right. It may have just been dealt with better, so it wasn't seen as such of a problem back then. But it definitely happened.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  12. #612
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    You're right. It may have just been dealt with better, so it wasn't seen as such of a problem back then. But it definitely happened.
    Yeah my particular cases were just unusually glaring ones...Even pulling the gear doesn't matter till 90 line when most of us were no heirlooms.

    I actually made a point to memorize his name and server LOL.


    But enough OT i say LOL.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Marchen View Post
    I agree so much with this. I don't know what make people being so elitist these days. Raiding is a lot easier, playing the game too.
    I've actually noticed this through the years, as things become easier to do, the requirements individuals have on strangers has gotten higher and higher and higher AND HIGHER AND HIGHER. Like, man, back in the day, it wasn't all that hard to get into a pug. I mean, yeah, it was still a bit to do, sure, but now, everyone wants you to of not only done it, but to have nearly all the loot you'd need from it already obtained, or some such.

    As Blizzard makes things more accessible, the top end users find their own ways to gate as much of the game off as they can.

  14. #614
    Depends. In 10m it can be important. If you got good alternatives you can stick the spriest with shadow and let the shaman use their off spec instead. Then, when required, said shaman would be able to go healing. If that shaman has good attendance, the priest can stick to shadow (which he's very good at). There's no problem. But if nobody can reliably fill that spot of off healing you may be better off with an spriest who is able to play their off spec well.
    What if that Shadow Priest is your best dps?

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I've actually noticed this through the years, as things become easier to do, the requirements individuals have on strangers has gotten higher and higher and higher AND HIGHER AND HIGHER. Like, man, back in the day, it wasn't all that hard to get into a pug. I mean, yeah, it was still a bit to do, sure, but now, everyone wants you to of not only done it, but to have nearly all the loot you'd need from it already obtained, or some such.

    As Blizzard makes things more accessible, the top end users find their own ways to gate as much of the game off as they can.
    Nice rose tints there.

    People have been asking you to overgear places since I began playing in late vanilla. You're just pretending it didn't exist. It's also not top players who do this, it's baddies who want a group to carry them (usually)

  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    As Blizzard makes things more accessible, the top end users find their own ways to gate as much of the game off as they can.
    I don't see how things are any different now than they have ever been, beyond what tools players have available to them when it comes to estimating someone's expected preformance.

    For example, as Barberry's post right above there inspired me to do, looking at her wow-heroes profile to see that she, in ilvl 497 gear, has never ranked above 200 for any fight ever (outside of LFR, which I don't understand why people log), it's safe to say that she is not a good player who is only brought otraids to fill empty spots (rather than because there are alternatives).

    I don't put a lot of emphasis on the importance of scoring highly on the logs (since they're easy to manipulate), but if you're a good player you should be ranking highly all of the time as a mere side-effect of you being a good player who knows what they're doing, without actually going out of your way to hit the top 10 or something.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaley View Post
    Experience matters. Why wouldn't it? I may think I'm an awesome 'baller, but I'm not in Kobe's league. I'm not even in DJ Byrd's league. Practice makes perfect, and someone who just started playing this game likely isn't going to be of the same quality as someone that's been doing the same song and dance for 7 years.
    Are you seriously telling me that you never seen raiders who stand in same shit for the months? Or raiders that can pick up mechanics of fight in one night? It's ability to learn that matters, not dumb wasting of time. Otherwise everything in this world would've been dominated by old farts.

    This is my own personal little hate in to many guild's attitude to requirement: previous experience > all. No matter if I later meet them in random run and catch them on stupidiest mistakes or outright not knowing stuff written openly in dungeon journal, but if at moment of applying I don't show them previous kills, they won't even listen why I don't have them.

  18. #618
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    Are you seriously telling me that you never seen raiders who stand in same shit for the months? Or raiders that can pick up mechanics of fight in one night? It's ability to learn that matters, not dumb wasting of time. Otherwise everything in this world would've been dominated by old farts.

    This is my own personal little hate in to many guild's attitude to requirement: previous experience > all. No matter if I later meet them in random run and catch them on stupidiest mistakes or outright not knowing stuff written openly in dungeon journal, but if at moment of applying I don't show them previous kills, they won't even listen why I don't have them.
    Guess what, calling people out on THEIR mistakes isn't going to get you invited. Why would they want that? You can prove lack of experience is not an issue with you without basically ruining your chances of ever getting in that guild. Very few people will enjoy being called out because they are complacent now and cba to keep up to date.

    Or to further the job interview analogy, would you call the interviewer out on some possible bad work you are aware of him doing stating you can do it better? You can be as right as you want but very few will be happy to say that you looked promising when you basically threatened their own position. WoW's position is more social (for those who may not get the leap)

    I also agree with Cattlehunter. If you have a lot of logs you should naturally be ranking a fair amount. The reason to use something like LFR (not for ranks but for performance analysis) is that for people like myself, almost all my raid logs have been private just because thats how the guilds I was in did it. They weren't interested in showing off as much as just using it for analysis.

  19. #619
    Guilds have the right to use whatever filtering they wish when they get new members. You can question their reasoning and methods but you can never deny them their methods. If the dont want you in for this/that reason... they you dont get in simple as that. Forcing your welcome is the most arrogant thing one can do if one cant take the "hint". No means no son end of story.

    Guild apps are here to stay.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Guess what, calling people out on THEIR mistakes isn't going to get you invited. Why would they want that? You can prove lack of experience is not an issue with you without basically ruining your chances of ever getting in that guild. Very few people will enjoy being called out because they are complacent now and cba to keep up to date.
    I generally discover that there are mistakes to call later, when I already found another guild and met some people that I was previously applying to in some random groups. Guess what? I'm calling pretty much anyone on mistakes in such groups, because encounter won't succeed without people fixing it. It is just fun to make a mental note while at it "oh, isn't that guy who just jumped down on Elegon from that guild that asked full T11-T13 heroic kills in app I've seen last month?"

    Or to further the job interview analogy, would you call the interviewer out on some possible bad work you are aware of him doing stating you can do it better? You can be as right as you want but very few will be happy to say that you looked promising when you basically threatened their own position. WoW's position is more social (for those who may not get the leap)
    You must've had experience with some pretty shitty jobs. McDonalds? Store clerk or waiter? Because in most highly competitive industries that actually require a brain, being able to accurately analyze what recruiting tech guy tells you about how things generally work in company and point problems is that is instant hire ticket. People LOVE when someone have good insight.

    It seems to me that you're follower of "don't be smart, be obedient" way and that's pretty much what applications is all about. No wonder you support them.
    Last edited by rowaasr13; 2013-01-15 at 11:10 AM.

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