Why Guild Applications are becoming a thing of the past

[Beebeey]

Not even going to bother with this anymore, since people seem to think I was referring to them specifically. Christ.

[Gags]

As a raid lead for my middle of the pack 10m team, I try and avoid using application forms at all costs. Not only are they annoying but anyone can manipulate a form to make themselves look good and is never a good representation of their playing ability. Some things though which people ask for on those forms are quite helpful, like providing logs of fights they've done, even it's only on LFR mode you can still get an understanding of how well they know and can play their class.

But the main way I usually recruit people for my team is actually just via pugging. As typically if you're down a member of your team in 10m you're never going to perform as well as you did, so i find picking up a random and if they turn out decent hit em up at the end of the raid and offer them a spot. Usually still implement some kind of trial period but only ever lasts a couple of weeks, by that time you know whether they are going to be dedicated and a quality raider.

[Resentful]

Nothing like it an application shows who the person really is like along with the history of the person, Experience is pretty big on top tier guilds. Trial periods last long simply because they want to see if you are perfect to be on their roster if not obviously fail you and be replaced It's as simple as that.

You want to be in a good guild? Show them how much you want to be in it; Show them how good you truly are instead of JUST CAN I JOIN YOUR GUILD I HAS THIS EXPERIENCE IN PUGS which well is actually rude mind you and the most important of them all are WOL logs like literally that's like a #1 requiment in most top tier guilds to see wtf your doing if your doing stupid stuff like standing in Breathe of fear or some other dumb stuff.

Analysis is what makes an application and that's why top guilds and even mid tier guilds want to analyze the best they can of you.

[This name sucks]

First off, I have met many amazing pugs in my WoW time and found numerous others without a home. Many have quit this expansion, because 'guild requirements' have become so rigorous about how much one theory-crafts, instead of actual game play.

So all I'm getting here is you're complaining that you are below the standards of your guild in terms of gems, reforging, rotation, etc. L2p.

I believe there is a time and a place to theory-craft: In fact, I love to do so, but I do not want to go into a two page discussion over one talent in an application for admittance or denial. In fact, if you are interested in finding out how knowledgeable I am about my class, why not just talk to me in-game or via voice communication about it? Actually talk to me, instead of being a snobby elitist that knit-picks everything and making assumptions.

So why are you doing your talents wrong to the point a guild would realize "holy shit this guy did his talents wrong, how do you even do that"

Further, I can understand people want to find the right fit for their guild, I really do, but when you make the process so ridiculous, you will end up with eventually unhappy people who will possibly quit.

So let me get this straight. You're mad about guilds filtering out idiots in a relatively efficient way. A guy somehow passes this basic test, transfers to the guild (paying real money, keep that in mind), and then change his mind and decides to ragequit because of the trial process he just completed? Sounds legit.

Unwilling to take on players who show potential and are trying to get better at the game

The potential being shown is the world of logs that the guild requires you to submit. You can do them at your own leisure, not sure how you can possibly be screwed out of that other than your own skill.

Furthermore, if these players can pug your progression, then perhaps you should give some of those people a shot.

Yeah okay, good luck pugging heroic t11, heroic baleroc pre nerf, heroic alysrazor, heroic rag, heroic putricide/sindragosa, hard mimiron, etc.

The whole third-rate guilds comparing themselves to others like Blood Legion is really annoying

Implying you have an opinion about high end guilds.

Everyone goes through a learning period: Some get better and some do not. Please remember you also once went through a learning period.

Cool, high end guilds are not the fucking learning curve.

Also, you can decline an application in a pious manner: You don't have to be a complete jerk about it. You see, us mid-grade players are the ones most likely to improve to a much higher potential: Yet, that cannot happen when you make requirements so ridiculous.

The bolded part is pretty much the definition of what real guilds DON'T want.

The requirements are high so that bads are kept out. You will never be able to competitively progress if you let every kid who wants in, in.

I'm OK with pugging the amount of hard-modes your guild boasts in the meantime.

You keep saying that with no logs, pictures or evidence.

Flowers grow with water and sunshine: Drowning them in water stifles potential growth and serves no purpose other than killing the plant.

What the hell is that suppose to mean. Flowers and sunshine; you must be new here.

[Darkfriend]

As a recruitment officer in my guild (Although we very rarely need to recruit, I think 2 people in 2 years really.) I get people to talk via btag, than if our times work and they are interested, we talk over skype/mumble/vent for a bit. Than if they want and we want them, they xfer. Boom. No annoying app.

[Beebeey]

Nothing like it an application shows who the person really is like along with the history of the person, Experience is pretty big on top tier guilds. Trial periods last long simply because they want to see if you are perfect to be on their roster if not obviously fail you and be replaced It's as simple as that.

You want to be in a good guild? Show them how much you want to be in it; Show them how good you truly are instead of JUST CAN I JOIN YOUR GUILD I HAS THIS EXPERIENCE IN PUGS which well is actually rude mind you and the most important of them all are WOL logs like literally that's like a #1 requiment in most top tier guilds to see wtf your doing if your doing stupid stuff like standing in Breathe of fear or some other dumb stuff.

Analysis is what makes an application and that's why top guilds and even mid tier guilds want to analyze the best they can of you.

I don't recall mentioning anything about top tier guilds: In fact, I suggested these are not top tier guilds and that is the point of my post. If you feel I was suggesting that people should simply have someone message for a guild invite, than you missed the point entirely.

What I am suggesting is that mid-level guilds actually take more care in screening applicants. I am also suggesting more interaction, with less elitism.

While WOL's gives you a nice idea, you also should keep in mind that not ALL pugs go according to plan. Logs cannot always tell you the number of various circumstances that occur within such encounters.

[Resentful]

I don't recall mentioning anything about top tier guilds: In fact, I suggested these are not top tier guilds and that is the point of my post. If you feel I was suggesting that people should simply have someone message for a guild invite, than you missed the point entirely.

What I am suggesting is that mid-level guilds actually take more care in screening applicants. I am also suggesting more interaction, with less elitism.

While WOL's gives you a nice idea, you also should keep in mind that not ALL pugs go according to plan. Logs cannot always tell you the number of various circumstances that occur within such encounters.

I stated mid tier guilds as well I'll keep it short. If you're garbage they're not going to take you It's that simple WOL provides every single piece of information out there unless you don't know a WOL log works.

There is no elitism in a APP processes =/ They just want the best of what you can provide them.

[This name sucks]

I don't recall mentioning anything about top tier guilds: In fact, I suggested these are not top tier guilds and that is the point of my post. If you feel I was suggesting that people should simply have someone message for a guild invite, than you missed the point entirely.

What I am suggesting is that mid-level guilds actually take more care in screening applicants. I am also suggesting more interaction, with less elitism.

While WOL's gives you a nice idea, you also should keep in mind that not ALL pugs go according to plan. Logs cannot always tell you the number of various circumstances that occur within such encounters.

Actually, you should know this too, logs do tell you every single insignificant detail. What buffs were active, which weren't. Who took damage at what time? when lust happened. Who was targeted by abilities.

Its all in there. No excuse.

Also very nice of you to choose the tiny watered down post to respond to instead of mine.

[MoanaLisa]

A lot of guilds are in a bad place these days and from what I've read here and there don't really seem to understand why. Overly strict requirements are a part of it; keeping your place in the raid more by fear and performance than anything else is another. This is pretty much what a lot of guild culture has become among the wannabe progression guilds. It's a tough system and it wasn't a huge surprise to me that those that enjoy raiding for what it is--beating bosses in large groups--migrated to the less-than-optimal fields of LFR once it was available.

Guilds in general need to rethink their culture a bit. It should be more about teamwork, teamwork implying a game and fun, instead of some military-style dictatorship in which you get ruthlessly cut if you don't measure up. Helping people get better is usually easier than constantly recruiting. That gets to guild applications and overly strenuous requirements where an alternate approach of expansion into multiple teams with an emphasis on improving people and perhaps starting some friendly progression competition in the guild itself would be more helpful and likely more fun. This is not to say that guild applications are not useful; they are. But the stringent requirements to be able to be raid-ready on day 1 or you suck probably filters out a lot of decent players that could use some help up.

I don't know that this could ever happen because it's really a culture that can only work in a mature, adult, drama-free environment. Nonetheless this is how a lot of real-life companies work: investing in your team is always better than constantly replacing it.

Just my two cents on it. I did the progression thing during Wrath, dropped out of it for Cataclysm and am not really all that interested in going back into that system as it stands now.

[Jämeson]

If you are not willing to put into some minor effort to fill out some fort of application, why should I waste my time on someone too lazy to put forth a legible, decent app? It is a screening process for me, if you can't even be bothered to fill out everything in its entirety my guild is not going to waste time carrying you.

[Beebeey]

So all I'm getting here is you're complaining that you are below the standards of your guild in terms of gems, reforging, rotation, etc. L2p.

Feel free to click on my little icon: Go ahead and analyze my character.

So why are you doing your talents wrong to the point a guild would realize "holy shit this guy did his talents wrong, how do you even do that"

Why are you suggesting that I am the one with the issue here? Again, there are circumstances where someone logs out in PVP gear and things of that nature that do occur.

So let me get this straight. You're mad about guilds filtering out idiots in a relatively efficient way. A guy somehow passes this basic test, transfers to the guild (paying real money, keep that in mind), and then change his mind and decides to ragequit because of the trial process he just completed? Sounds legit.

Wrong. What I am suggesting, is that the process seems almost outdated with the expansion of 10man raiding guilds, LFR and various other components. I actually have seen people do what you suggest BTW.

Yeah okay, good luck pugging heroic t11, heroic baleroc pre nerf, heroic alysrazor, heroic rag, heroic putricide/sindragosa, hard mimron, etc.

I most certainly did pug my Tribute to Insanity and Glory achievements: Your point?

Cool, high end guilds are not the fucking learning curve

Please show me where I even mentioned high-end raiding guilds?

[hulkgor]

Applications are of very little importance. What mostly happens is bad players 'sugar coating' applies and then failing horribly at the first raids, whilst others aren't given the opportunity because they didn't waste time making a 'neat' presentation, even if they are considerably good players.

Anyway, whilst i was a 25man guild RL\GM, i took a lot more from a 2-3min chat on VT\TS then 'neat applications'.

[Resentful]

is that the process seems almost outdated with the expansion of 10man raiding guilds, LFR and various other components. I actually have seen people do what you suggest BTW.

No it will never be outdated sorry guilds Mid tier wise whom are decent won't take you if you don't apply an application It's simple as that.

[Maxweii]

I haven't had to worry about apps ever, and actually the guild I am in now I got in via my guild I was leading getting absorbed by them so we bypassed the app process, but overall I have never seen an unfair app to a guild.

Let's take the guild I am in now. Oldest guild on the server, one of the few 25 man raiding guilds on the server, as long as our attendance is normal we stay #1 on our server in terms of 25 mans, currently have 3 officers one whom is raid leader, and they all do their jobs superbly, the GM is annoying at times but that's just cus he's kinda ignorant to his own mistakes (he is MT), and we clear stuff with pretty decent consistency.
To app to it, pretty simple. Copy paste a app from our site, fill in the blanks, and bam. 99% of apps get taken, as it's not asking what is your hps/dps ect in every single fight, it just asks general questions such as age (we have a age limit of 18+), internet connection, pc specs, armory link, and past raiding history. From that point the raider ranks who are the same class look over the gear/spec and give either tips to improve, just a plain thumbs up, thumbs down, or questions based on why something is done a bit diff (as I play Unholy mastery>crit>haste and top the charts we understand there is no cookie cutter). Then the GM looks over age and stuff and as long as the gear is decent enough to let us carry you till your as geared as us, and the GM's part goes through then you get accepted.

That's my guild though, and I have seen others from my server in my time and they aren't ever that bad. All be it if you wana get into say DREAM Paragon or such then yeah, it is strict.

A guild can be as strict as they want, because when it comes down to it it's an application to bring someone into a guild where x amount of others are already having fun, bring in someone new who keeps messing up, and that can stop the fun.

[Beebeey]

I stated mid tier guilds as well I'll keep it short. If you're garbage they're not going to take you It's that simple WOL provides every single piece of information out there unless you don't know a WOL log works.

There is no elitism in a APP processes =/ They just want the best of what you can provide them.

That is providing people can accurately analyze them: Which I very rarely see regardless.

[Resentful]

That is providing people can accurately analyze them: Which I very rarely see regardless.

You think a mid tier guild doesn't know how to analyze a WOL log? What are they garbage too? There's many variables there.

[Deleted]

snip

Theres no need to get hostile about it. Besides I dont think he is talking about the kind of guild you are comming from, he is talking about a kind of guild who maybe got 3 heroic bosses down (arround rank 5000 I would say without looking at wowprogress).

[Beebeey]

Theres no need to get hostile about it. Besides I dont think he is talking about the kind of guild you are comming from, he is talking about a kind of guild who maybe got 3 heroic bosses down (arround rank 5000 I would say without looking at wowprogress).

She and absolutely. Thank you.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 09:57 PM ----------

Actually, you should know this too, logs do tell you every single insignificant detail. What buffs were active, which weren't. Who took damage at what time? when lust happened. Who was targeted by abilities.

Its all in there. No excuse.

Also very nice of you to choose the tiny watered down post to respond to instead of mine.

I actually didn't see your tiny watered down post? I don't check out the General forums - I particularly stick to the Hunter forums.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 09:58 PM ----------

You think a mid tier guild doesn't know how to analyze a WOL log? What are they garbage too? There's many variables there.

The types of guilds I'm referring to? I don't think anything of them being garbage. I do absolutely think that some people do not analyze such things.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 10:00 PM ----------

Actually, you should know this too, logs do tell you every single insignificant detail. What buffs were active, which weren't. Who took damage at what time? when lust happened. Who was targeted by abilities.

Its all in there. No excuse.

Also very nice of you to choose the tiny watered down post to respond to instead of mine.

The information may be - the analytical skills perhaps not.

[Slummish]

I spent a couple of years in a raiding guild. We had all realm firsts and, by fluke or fortune, even had one world first during WotLK. I joined them during early TBC and that's right about the time raiding applications came into vogue. As I recall, the application was pretty detailed. However, there was none of the "show us your UI," "show us your logs," or "show us your girlfriend's bewbs."

I would hate to have to join a hardcore raid now based on an application. I know how to counterfeit a brilliant application, but who has the time or desire?

It's really just scads easier if you stick two officers and the interviewee in a Vent room and let them talk for 20 minutes. Real raiders can tell in about 5 seconds if someone is stupid or full of shit just by listening to them talk about the game. I know I can...

[This name sucks]

Feel free to click on my little icon: Go ahead and analyze my character.


Why are you suggesting that I am the one with the issue here? Again, there are circumstances where someone logs out in PVP gear and things of that nature that do occur.

Wrong. What I am suggesting, is that the process seems almost outdated with the expansion of 10man raiding guilds, LFR and various other components. I actually have seen people do what you suggest BTW.

I most certainly did pug my Tribute to Insanity and Glory achievements: Your point?


Please show me where I even mentioned high-end raiding guilds?

an 4, 2013 Barberry joined guild Trademark
Dec 28, 2012 Barberry left guild Trademark
Dec 21, 2012 Barberry joined guild Trademark
Dec 17, 2012 Barberry left guild Aspersion
Dec 1, 2012 Barberry joined guild Aspersion
Nov 29, 2012 Barberry left guild Ports rnt Free
Nov 16, 2012 Barberry joined guild Ports rnt Free
Nov 14, 2012 Barberry left guild Topped Off

Looks legit, you totally have an opinion.

And I 100% doubt you did any real hard achievements in a pug. Post some pictures or its bullshit. I've posted all of my achievements publicly in my sig.

Probably take enough interest that you change your gear before logging out if you genuinely want to be in a guild.

If you ever want to advance beyond looking for retard then you should probably prove that you are not infact a retard to the people who would be giving you a chance.