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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    The play style change will allow Retribution to play as a 1H or 2H spec, similar to a Fury Warrior or Frost DK, without the Dual Wield. However, abilities can compensate the lack of additional damage that DW offers with adding off-hand damage with increased damage from the main hand instead, mainly from the benefit of having Holy damage. The goal is to make 2H more burst-like as it is now, while having 1H style a more fluid, sustained damage role.
    Personally don't see why Paladins should move away from 2H weapons. It's what makes the class iconic. Like for example the Ashbringer weapon. The only other possibility is to have Ret Paladins dual wield 1H weapons, because there's too much demand for 2H weapons. DKs use 2H weapon for all 3 of their specs, but only Frost makes good use of dual wielding. Fury Warriors can use 2H weapons for ARMs and Fury, but only Fury can use 1H weapons, and just so happens that 1H dual wielding is better then 2H dual wielding.

    But then again it would just be better to have Frost be a dual wielding only spec, and keep Warriors as they are, cause 1H > 2H Fury.
    Seals and Auras

    Now the most iconic thing about Paladins, besides being powerhouses in 3.0, was our seals and auras. Some were taken, some were reworked, some were added, some were butchered. So I've thought of a few changes that could be made;
    I personally see nothing wrong with our Seals. Only maybe giving each race a different name for them, like how Shamans got unique totems for each race. For example Seal of Truth for Alliance, while Seal of Blood for Blood Elf horde, but the exact same Seal in function. Tauren's would make more sense to call it Seal of Sun, and Draenei as Seal of Naaru.

    Seal of Truth <-- perfect as is
    Seal of Righteous <-- needs a buff to be an AOE Seal, like in 5.2
    Seal of Justice <-- gonna be good in 5.2
    Seal of Insight <-- just fine as a Holy Paladin/survivability Seal



    And for Auras;
    If we're going to bring Auras back, then they should be specific to each spec. Retribution Aura for Ret, Devotion Aura for Prot, and Concentration Aura for Holy. But such buffs should be given to other classes as well, so what these Aura's give out should probably decided in the next expansion. Maybe Ret aura gives out 5% crit, and Concentration gives out 10% spell power with devotion aura as a Armor buff.

    Retribution Ability changes

    -- Consecration is baseline. I honestly have no idea as to why this wasn't done so before hand.
    -- Divine Storm reworked from 100% down to 90%; this is due to the increase power from Sword of Light and Seal of Blood for 2H Ret.
    -- Hammer of the Righteous reworked to be able to spread Censure while wielding a 1H weapon. This should be balanced so that Censure DoTs + 1H Divine Storm = 2H Divine Storm + Seal of Righteousness. This should add up to be around a 50% AoE damage increase without consecration, but again my number crunching is off...
    -- Art of War reworked to make Flash of Light to become instant as well as its Exorcism benefits. This should increase our Heal output by a good amount, with the trade-off of damage.
    -- Word of Glory reworked from 4803 - 5350 (+ 49% Spellpower) to 4303 - 4850 (+60% Spellpower) This will make low-end WoG not as ridiculously strong as before, but also allow it to scale well with gear, making it more beneficial at max level. By how much, I've no idea.
    -- Hammer of Wrath reworked to increase damage from 161% to 181% spellpower. For an ability that is apparently a ranged execute it doesn't deal much damage outside of Avenging Wrath. Maybe it's just me.
    -- Avenging Wrath reworked from 20% damage increase to 10%. This will be balanced around the fact that Hammer of Wrath does more damage, coupled with the new Seal of Blood/Command damage, as well as balancing overall damage.
    -- Get fucking rid of Inquisition. The new damage outputs are balanced around the increases to certain spells and abilities, and additional auras, to offset the removal of Inquisition. Crit can just be baked into the Ret spec, I guess. Or just removed entirely.
    I don't agree with a lot of this, and honestly the math you have is not worth thinking about. Inquisition is the only skill factor Ret has, so it must stay. Consecration is only wanted because we have no method to get stealth players out of hiding, but I don't want another button to press. We have plenty of AOE, we just need to be able to use it without a target nearby to hit, such as Hammer of the Righteous. If it hits someone, then we get a charge of Holy Power.

    Otherwise it looks like a bunch of changes for the sake of changing things.

  2. #102
    Just a little more insight into what Guyviroth said about paladins using 1-handers:

    Blizzard can reintroduce librams or just make strength off-hands that a paladin can wield along with the 1-hander. Basically you will look like Uther Lightbringer

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellmist View Post
    Just a little more insight into what Guyviroth said about paladins using 1-handers:

    Blizzard can reintroduce librams or just make strength off-hands that a paladin can wield along with the 1-hander. Basically you will look like Uther Lightbringer
    uther lightbringer didnt have one handed weapon..

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Ianus View Post
    uther lightbringer didnt have one handed weapon..
    if you go to http://www.wowwiki.com/Uther_the_Lightbringer it sure looks like hes carrying a big ass book and a 1-hander mace

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellmist View Post
    if you go to http://www.wowwiki.com/Uther_the_Lightbringer it sure looks like hes carrying a big ass book and a 1-hander mace
    i think you should play wc3 then put on 2:20

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFIhMwobUK4#t=2:20
    Last edited by Ianus; 2013-02-13 at 06:01 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Ianus View Post
    i think you should play wc3 then put on 2:20

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFIhMwobUK4#t=2:20
    Quality is terrible on that vid and I dont even know where to find WC3 (do they still sell it), so is there anything current that would support your statement?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellmist View Post
    Quality is terrible on that vid and I dont even know where to find WC3 (do they still sell it), so is there anything current that would support your statement?
    Lol, yes, they still sell WC3. Also: that mace you linked from the wowwiki page is very much so a 2 handed weapon. You just can't see half of the shaft.
    Hell, even scroll down your own link and look at all of the in-game iterations of his model.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Lol, yes, they still sell WC3. Also: that mace you linked from the wowwiki page is very much so a 2 handed weapon. You just can't see half of the shaft.
    Hell, even scroll down your own link and look at all of the in-game iterations of his model.
    You are correct it was a 2-hander mace so how can he dual wield a 2-hander with a off hand tome? but anyway, i digress from my original statement, ret pallies can be dual wielders with a 1-hander and an off hand tome/relic.

  9. #109
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    Seriously, Paladins are not A Dual Wield class.

    2h+ Libram, sure, if they would be able to visually pull it off but no no no 1her dual wield. Spell casting out of the Libram hand.

    There are few things that would make me quit the game. This is probably #1 on that list.
    Last edited by Krekko; 2013-02-15 at 06:35 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    Seriously, Paladins are not A Dual Wield class.

    2h+ Libram, sure, if they would be able to visually pull it off but no no no 1her dual wield. Spell casting out of the Libram hand.

    There are few things that would make me quit the game. This is probably #1 on that list.
    So you dont agree with 1-hander/2-hander and libram/tome? it makes sense lorewise and all Blizzard has to do is add str/stam librams along with allowing Ret spec paladins to wield 2-handers with 1 hand

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellmist View Post
    You are correct it was a 2-hander mace so how can he dual wield a 2-hander with a off hand tome? but anyway, i digress from my original statement, ret pallies can be dual wielders with a 1-hander and an off hand tome/relic.
    A person can carry a 2 handed mace in one hand... for instance, try carrying a 2 handed mallet/rake/shovel/etc in real life, you can carry it in one hand with a book in the other, but good luck swinging it without two hands.

    1H libram just doesn't make much sense. Maybe if they put in a caster dps spec, which I think they should.

    Other than that, if peopel want the libram effect, we should just be asking for librams to be pulled out during cast animations or something.

  12. #112
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellmist View Post
    So you dont agree with 1-hander/2-hander and libram/tome? it makes sense lorewise and all Blizzard has to do is add str/stam librams along with allowing Ret spec paladins to wield 2-handers with 1 hand
    I think a clarification is in order.

    I do NOT want to see 1H dual wild.

    I do NOT want to see Ret 1H + Libram

    I would be "fine" with ret wielding a 2Her and Libram/Tome combo. To extend on this, It'd be more of the tome less as a weapon itself but when we cast our spells, it'd be in the hand with the Libram and essentially purely aesthetic/visual.

    A single handed "Titan's Grip"
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
    | [MoP]Ret Paladin Guide | Fix My DPS | Fix My Heals | Fix My Tanking |

    WoW Level Scaling Feature

  13. #113
    @Ghostcrawler
    ret solution : AW back to 2min baseline, Sword of light 2H to 15%, censure 20s and slightly higher dmg. Voilà, ret is fine now

    @Ghostcrawler Sorry fr syntax, char limit force me to be quick. It doesn't mean to be a lack of respect. Keep up the efforts

    @Ghostcrawler and pvp 4p bonus : cleanse remove all magic effect from your character only, but increase CD by 7s

    16:46 - 15 févr. 2013
    Tweeted GC these simple solutions. as for pvp utility for the CC talent line, I don't have a clue. But interesting thoughts here

  14. #114
    We are NEVER going to get a 15 second magical trinket. NEVER.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  15. #115
    This thread really helped me on my questions about paladins without asking haha! thanks

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    We are NEVER going to get a 15 second magical trinket. NEVER.
    well, then maybe on a longer CD then ?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by MrImmortal View Post
    Or change fist of justice to root of justice (like the implementation of a root effect with the light's hammer). So lets say that after the stun effect ends, the target is rooted in place for 2-3 seconds, or if dispelled early also triggers the root effect.
    Or actually make the talent so that after 2 judgements to the same target it roots them in place (the first being the 50% slow, then the second being the root). This will make ret more useful for peels; nothing worse than your arena partner getting trained and you can't do anything about it.
    I do agree that Burden of guilt should be baseline for ret also.
    I do agree with you burden should be baseline, but if they do turn it to baseline for rets then they need to tone it down a tad, 50% slow at all times from judgement which is a 5 sec CD(Not exactly sure, dont play my pally much) With that slow baseline and having fist it just wouldnt be fair.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tapzer View Post
    I do agree with you burden should be baseline, but if they do turn it to baseline for rets then they need to tone it down a tad, 50% slow at all times from judgement which is a 5 sec CD(Not exactly sure, dont play my pally much) With that slow baseline and having fist it just wouldnt be fair.
    How is it not? Feral's get a snare with no loss of anything. Rogues get a snare with no loss of anything in PvP. Hamstring barely takes rage. Monks get a snare with barely any loss of dps. Burden from judge perhaps shouldn't be baseline, but the snare definitely should. And then Burden should be changed into something akin to Frozen Power from Shammies.
    Last edited by Valedus; 2013-02-16 at 08:52 AM.

  19. #119
    I usually stay quiet on these threads and just see what other people are thinking but here is my 2 cents for the class.

    1. Seal swap could be a great way to do it.
    - Increase duration of censure where its beneficial to just refresh the dot

    2. Give us an aoe dot. I know its not where our class traditionally is, but I feel that if you created a way to spread your stacks of censure it would be a ton of fun and help our aoe out without it all being upfront damage. Maybe create this spell with a glyph and then have it that SoR does less against targets with censure so that damage wouldn't stack. Would help sustained damage on adds without sacrificing that upfront damage if we need it by simply switching the glyph.

    3. I have played most the other classes and something that I would absolutely love to see is a benefit buff from an ability. Similar to how elemental blast grants 3500 of x stat for 8 seconds. Maybe take our level 90 talent and create a rule that it can't be active with wings or holy avenger. Right now rets model is stack everything into those cds and go. Instead this would have cd and then you use your level 90 talent for the buff to create more sustained damage. It doesn't have to even be a stat benefit it could be something as simple as your physical damage is increased for 20 seconds after using the talent. Sure its a cd but now your damage would be spike - mini spike - low - mini spike - spike. Of course this would call for some balancing of abilities, but in all honesty if it even went into place it would be next expac.


    They could just return to the DS model of ret.. I loved the hard hitting cds with the rng of exorcism and divine purpose. Really kept me on my toes and felt powerful when a proc came. Now I feel like a rotation bot only reacting to exorcism procs since divine purpose isn't ideal on 95% of fights.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyreth View Post
    I usually stay quiet on these threads and just see what other people are thinking but here is my 2 cents for the class.

    1. Seal swap could be a great way to do it.
    - Increase duration of censure where its beneficial to just refresh the dot

    2. Give us an aoe dot. I know its not where our class traditionally is, but I feel that if you created a way to spread your stacks of censure it would be a ton of fun and help our aoe out without it all being upfront damage. Maybe create this spell with a glyph and then have it that SoR does less against targets with censure so that damage wouldn't stack. Would help sustained damage on adds without sacrificing that upfront damage if we need it by simply switching the glyph.

    3. I have played most the other classes and something that I would absolutely love to see is a benefit buff from an ability. Similar to how elemental blast grants 3500 of x stat for 8 seconds. Maybe take our level 90 talent and create a rule that it can't be active with wings or holy avenger. Right now rets model is stack everything into those cds and go. Instead this would have cd and then you use your level 90 talent for the buff to create more sustained damage. It doesn't have to even be a stat benefit it could be something as simple as your physical damage is increased for 20 seconds after using the talent. Sure its a cd but now your damage would be spike - mini spike - low - mini spike - spike. Of course this would call for some balancing of abilities, but in all honesty if it even went into place it would be next expac.


    They could just return to the DS model of ret.. I loved the hard hitting cds with the rng of exorcism and divine purpose. Really kept me on my toes and felt powerful when a proc came. Now I feel like a rotation bot only reacting to exorcism procs since divine purpose isn't ideal on 95% of fights.
    I've always thought they should just kill SoR and make Divine Storm spread our stacks of Censure.

    I would be totally fine with your 3rd point.

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