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  1. #1

    [Ret Ideas] Reworking Retribution

    These are just some ideas I had in mind to rework Retribution to be more... fun? Please bear in mind these are just ideas that came to me (rather early in the morning) and are just here to kinda bring more diversity to the Ret style. Also, please understand that these numbers are just here to indicate how spells could be balanced around other examples and are not final numbers; I'm not a number-cruncher guy so I have no idea if these figures accomplish what they're going for.

    This post is aiming to find a solution, or ideas, to fix;

    -- PvP Damage and Survivability
    -- Reduction to burst in favor of sustained
    -- The minor problem of aura removal
    -- AoE Damage
    -- Self and Off-healing
    -- More "finishers"

    So without further ado;

    Ret Play style change

    The play style change will allow Retribution to play as a 1H or 2H spec, similar to a Fury Warrior or Frost DK, without the Dual Wield. However, abilities can compensate the lack of additional damage that DW offers with adding off-hand damage with increased damage from the main hand instead, mainly from the benefit of having Holy damage. The goal is to make 2H more burst-like as it is now, while having 1H style a more fluid, sustained damage role.

    So at the moment;

    -- Rework 2H fighting to benefit from Mastery > Haste
    -- Rework 1H fighting to benefit from Haste > Mastery
    -- Rework Sword of Light to have 2H benefit from 15% extra damage, up from 10%
    -- Rework Sword of Light to have 1H benefit from 30% extra damage to make up for the DPS difference between 1H and 2H

    Seals and Auras

    Now the most iconic thing about Paladins, besides being powerhouses in 3.0, was our seals and auras. Some were taken, some were reworked, some were added, some were butchered. So I've thought of a few changes that could be made;

    So for Seals;

    -- Seal of Truth reworked from (107 (+ 9.4% SP) *5) to (107 (+ 10.4% SP) *Haste/4) This should see a small increase in DPS compared to what Censure does nowadays, but the haste scaling makes it the go-to seal for 1H haste builds.
    -- *NEW* Seal of Blood(H)/Command(A), allowing each attack to deal an extra 30% of weapon damage as holy damage. This will be designed to benefit from extra damage from Mastery and weapon damage, so it becomes the seal of choice for 2H users.
    -- Seal of Righteousness reworked to deal 10% weapon damage to all enemies within 8 yards, up from 6%,
    -- Seal of Justice reworked to reduce movement speed by 40% for 6 seconds, down from 60% and 8 seconds, but increases casting time by 40% to anyone hit. This will be our go-to seal when attacking ranged, casters, and healers.
    -- Seal of Insight healing reworked from (0.15*AP.15*holy spell power) to AP.35; this will double the heal and a bit more, allowing for more solo work but also to help with raid tanking, though not by much. Still the go-to seal for tanking and healing.

    And for Auras;

    -- All Auras share the 3min cooldown.
    -- Rework Devotion Aura from Silence and Interrupts to Movement Impairing effects and Snares, and from 20% magic damage reduction to Melee damage.
    -- *NEW* Retribution Aura, allows all members in a 40yard radius to gain 10% Mastery for 8 seconds.
    -- *NEW* Crusader Aura, allows all members in a 40yard radius gain 10% Haste for 8 seconds.
    -- *NEW* Concentration Aura, grants players in a 40yard radius immunity from Silence and Interrupts and reduces magic damage taken by 20%. Lasts 6 seconds.

    So basically, the Auras are divided; two offensive, two defensive. Devotion Aura is used to help out and defend against melee, while Concentration Aura works on casters. Retribution Aura helps out those who rely on Mastery, while Crusader helps Haste.

    Retribution Ability changes

    So at the moment we have solved a few problems in terms of the minor aura/seal removal sadness, and having a sustained damage role while keeping a burst option. Now we can work on our healing and AoE damage. So here is what I propose;

    -- Consecration is baseline. I honestly have no idea as to why this wasn't done so before hand.
    -- Divine Storm reworked from 100% down to 90%; this is due to the increase power from Sword of Light and Seal of Blood for 2H Ret.
    -- Hammer of the Righteous reworked to be able to spread Censure while wielding a 1H weapon. This should be balanced so that Censure DoTs + 1H Divine Storm = 2H Divine Storm + Seal of Righteousness. This should add up to be around a 50% AoE damage increase without consecration, but again my number crunching is off...
    -- Art of War reworked to make Flash of Light to become instant as well as its Exorcism benefits. This should increase our Heal output by a good amount, with the trade-off of damage.
    -- Word of Glory reworked from 4803 - 5350 (+ 49% Spellpower) to 4303 - 4850 (+60% Spellpower) This will make low-end WoG not as ridiculously strong as before, but also allow it to scale well with gear, making it more beneficial at max level. By how much, I've no idea.
    -- Hammer of Wrath reworked to increase damage from 161% to 181% spellpower. For an ability that is apparently a ranged execute it doesn't deal much damage outside of Avenging Wrath. Maybe it's just me.
    -- Avenging Wrath reworked from 20% damage increase to 10%. This will be balanced around the fact that Hammer of Wrath does more damage, coupled with the new Seal of Blood/Command damage, as well as balancing overall damage.
    -- Get fucking rid of Inquisition. The new damage outputs are balanced around the increases to certain spells and abilities, and additional auras, to offset the removal of Inquisition. Crit can just be baked into the Ret spec, I guess. Or just removed entirely.

    As for new finishers... I honestly can't think of any more. We have a single-target, an AoE, and a heal. Do we really need any more finishers?

    Nonetheless, feel free to leave your responses, suggestions, approvals, disapprovals, whatever.

  2. #2
    all i want is sustain dmg not be so terrible.

    and i want consecration back
    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    I hear people say bring War back to World of Warcraft, well how about bringing World back to World of Warcraft

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by PlatedPriest View Post
    all i want is sustain dmg not be so terrible.

    and i want consecration back
    Same, but to get that I actually believe they have to rework the whole class. We're to built around our CDs now.. And I cant see they fix it anytime soon.

    Good read though, to early in the morning here to see if it would work though ^^

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    Yeah, I went to sleep yesterday with my mind fixed on doing something like this, but most of my ideas go sideways from that. I agree with some of the changes (auras for instance - remember that everything here must be Ret only) and that we can throw ideas with numbers with something on our mind about how it's going to be still balanced and not affect PVE/Holy afterwards but I think Blizz wants to know the mechanics - why we're not desirible (like, not enough peels or sustained or survivability) and then some ideas, but I don't think numbers will help. They'll do they're thing anyway =P

    So, instead of making a post 2 times bigger here, I'm creating a new one with some of all stuff. There's a lot of personal ideas I don't agree to, so my arguments gonna be there. Most is about mechanincs, so... well, let me get on with it.

  5. #5
    God if only some of these changes would go into effect! Great read if nothing else and I like the ideas...would be interesting to see how some of those numbers would sim out to get a feel for how the class would stack up.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    -- Get fucking rid of Inquisition
    Amen, I hate hate hate this mechanic.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PlatedPriest View Post
    all i want is sustain dmg not be so terrible.

    and i want consecration back
    Yeah, the idea is to have Consecration baseline while 1H goes sustained damage with Seal of Truth and Haste builds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nonslid View Post
    Same, but to get that I actually believe they have to rework the whole class. We're to built around our CDs now.. And I cant see they fix it anytime soon.

    Good read though, to early in the morning here to see if it would work though ^^
    I think it's kinda become a running gag now that Paladins keep getting reworked every expansion. But it would be nice to see some great diversity in DPS roles like how most, if not all, the other classes have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athama View Post
    God if only some of these changes would go into effect! Great read if nothing else and I like the ideas...would be interesting to see how some of those numbers would sim out to get a feel for how the class would stack up.
    I think if there's any awesome number-crunching genius' here with sims we could potentially do that. Would be nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantoro View Post
    Amen, I hate hate hate this mechanic.
    I can't think of anyone who actually likes having to keep up a 30 sec buff on a class that has a (small) ramp-up time and is burst, especially one that comes at a cost of a burst cooldown (Templar's Verdict).

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    I agree that Inq SUCKS to keep up, but it's the mechanic thay made. I mean, it's on the package with the whole Holy Power and everthing Ret is designed for. Look at how things turned out:

    They buffed our Self Selfless Heals to a maybe reasonable amount (still think it'll be weak, but we'll see) and put a cast on Holy's Blind. Small changes, to the direction we're trying to get. We'd LOVE those changes, but it's a safe bet they won't do it. There's just too many consequences.

    Well, let's see how it turns out. Hope we'll live some more. Still waiting for at least a 30% self WoG buff and a new Ret exclusive instant CC.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    I always hated consecration, holy wrath. I dont want useless filler spells no thanks.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nonslid View Post
    Same, but to get that I actually believe they have to rework the whole class. We're to built around our CDs now.. And I cant see they fix it anytime soon.
    Reduce CD and effect of LH/ES
    Increase CD of GAnK to 10 minutes. Add Forbearance and link to US. Change to transformation effect.
    Remove Holy Avenger
    Remove CD on Crusader Strike
    Adjust damage

    Combined effect makes it much more difficult to stack CDs and its less effective when it does happen.

    As for Inq....I'm also a fan of the idea that it should be removed. I don't think its interesting and I don't think it succeeds in adding complexity to the class. I'd prefer they switch to an energy type mechanic and base the complexity around that.

    EJL

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Reduce CD and effect of LH/ES
    Increase CD of GAnK to 10 minutes. Add Forbearance and link to US. Change to transformation effect.
    Remove Holy Avenger
    Remove CD on Crusader Strike
    Adjust damage

    Combined effect makes it much more difficult to stack CDs and its less effective when it does happen.

    As for Inq....I'm also a fan of the idea that it should be removed. I don't think its interesting and I don't think it succeeds in adding complexity to the class. I'd prefer they switch to an energy type mechanic and base the complexity around that.

    EJL
    I don't think a 10 min cooldown on Guardian will make people happy. Definitely won't make me happy.
    Removing Holy Avenger will definitely annoy the PvP crowd. It's a powerful ability but it's definitely very useful, and popular.
    Removing the CD on Crusader Strike would definitely be a nice idea if they removed Sanctity of Battle overall and reduced CS' damage.

    As for alternate resources, Energy has been done to death somewhat, by Rogues, Monks, Feral Druid and, similar extent, Hunters. However, the Rage mechanic only has Warrior, Guardian Druid and Death Knights. Perhaps Paladins could have an alternate resource, as Prot and Ret, that is similar to rage/runic power.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    Yeah, the idea is to have Consecration baseline while 1H goes sustained damage with Seal of Truth and Haste builds.



    I think it's kinda become a running gag now that Paladins keep getting reworked every expansion. But it would be nice to see some great diversity in DPS roles like how most, if not all, the other classes have.



    I think if there's any awesome number-crunching genius' here with sims we could potentially do that. Would be nice.



    I can't think of anyone who actually likes having to keep up a 30 sec buff on a class that has a (small) ramp-up time and is burst, especially one that comes at a cost of a burst cooldown (Templar's Verdict).
    the issue is that Ret pallies only have 1 dps spec compared to 2-3 for most other classes.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellmist View Post
    the issue is that Ret pallies only have 1 dps spec compared to 2-3 for most other classes.
    I'm not sure how that's an issue. I think that any flaws in DPS design, or at least what people consider flaws, can be solved through numbers or just offering an alternative to play style, similar to 2H / DW frost DK.

  14. #14
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    I don't think a 10 min cooldown on Guardian will make people happy. Definitely won't make me happy.
    Removing Holy Avenger will definitely annoy the PvP crowd. It's a powerful ability but it's definitely very useful, and popular.
    Removing the CD on Crusader Strike would definitely be a nice idea if they removed Sanctity of Battle overall and reduced CS' damage.
    The issue here is burst. There is too much of it and, as a result, sustained damage suffers.

    How do you address that?

    Burst tends to occur when CDs are popped. Blowing multiple CDs tends to magnify their effectiveness as they often boost each other. To address burst, but still leave overall DPS at an acceptable level, you need to either remove the CDs or reduce their effectiveness.

    The problem with reducing their effectiveness is that you end up with a damp squib effect. You get a boost, but one that really isn't worth the excitement.

    Making GAnK a 10 min CD means it is only available half as often. In addition, with a 3 min AW, it may be more awkward to actually stack both CDs at once.
    HA can be a fun mechanic, but at the same time, it is a third DPS CD on a class that doesn't really need a third DPS CD. You can't lower burst and raise sustained without hitting some CD somewhere.

    All three CDs - GAnK, AW and HA - raise DPS. AW adds HoW to the rotation and boosts healing; GAnK adds a pet and HA allows more frequent access to finishers. All raise damage, all affect the rotation. HA is a talent and on a short cooldown.

    As for alternate resources, Energy has been done to death somewhat, by Rogues, Monks, Feral Druid and, similar extent, Hunters. However, the Rage mechanic only has Warrior, Guardian Druid and Death Knights. Perhaps Paladins could have an alternate resource, as Prot and Ret, that is similar to rage/runic power.
    Energy works. And there are several variations on the scheme - including rage. The important point is that it'd add the complexity the class needs but Inq doesn't provide, and should be relatively simple to link with HP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    I'm not sure how that's an issue. I think that any flaws in DPS design, or at least what people consider flaws, can be solved through numbers or just offering an alternative to play style, similar to 2H / DW frost DK.
    It's an issue in that if one DPS spec is "broken", the other usually isn't. That option isn't available for Rets.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-19 at 01:51 PM.

  15. #15
    What if they made the Guardian more "petlike", where it had HP and people could kill it.

  16. #16
    So just thinking about the 1-hander. Now I know your intention isn't to make paladins and ret specifically another DW class/spec.

    But that does still leave us with an open hand. Does Ret now use a shield? Will we increase our spellpower contributions and use spellpower shields then or just tank shields? Does this mean shields are going to start being itemized the way weapons are - less emphasis on "fun" stats like crit or haste and instead just being all expertise, master and hit?

    Will 1-H ret then have access to SotR? If so will it replace TV or something? How will block figure into this since suddenly Ret can deal DPS level damage with what's essentially tank mitigation?

    Does this mean that Prot now gets a "strength of the light" talent that allows them to equip a 2-hander + shield? (Please say yes, that would make tanking so much nicer and cut down a little bit on bag bloat.)

    Anyway, you've got some good ideas and I'm all on board with getting rid of inquisition too. I don't think you'll find a paladin who isn't.

  17. #17
    Remove Inquisition
    Bring back Consecration
    Divine Storm, shouldn't cost Holy Power or share a cooldown with anything.
    Bring back Holy Wrath
    Selfless Healer or Sacred Shield should be baseline for Ret.
    Judgement should auto crit on stunned targets.
    Hammer of Wrath auto crit while Avenging Wrath is being used.

    Edit:
    Remove Hammer of Righteousness from ret.
    Lay on Hands shouldn't cause forbearance.
    Divine Shield shouldn't reduce the damage we deal, instead only special attacks can be used at no penalty.
    Bring back Divine Intervention.
    Repentance baseline for ret.
    Ret should be able to cleanse magic effects.
    Judgement should reduce targets movement speed.
    Last edited by iadamson; 2013-01-21 at 09:48 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by iadamson View Post
    Remove Inquisition
    Bring back Consecration
    Divine Storm, shouldn't cost Holy Power or share a cooldown with anything.
    Bring back Holy Wrath
    Selfless Healer or Sacred Shield should be baseline for Ret.
    Judgement should auto crit on stunned targets.
    Hammer of Wrath auto crit while Avenging Wrath is being used.
    I agree with everything except the auto crit on HoW while the target is stunned. This would make it way to bursty in PvP, and not usable in PvE.

    And I cant fathom why they made Divine Storm use HoPo as a finisher insted of a AoE counterpart for CS.

  19. #19
    I don't understand the hate that so many people seem to have for inquisition. Granted I played a feral Druid for all of wrath, and I'm used to the concept of keeping up a damage buff, it really isn't that bad. Ret has one of the easiest rotations in the game, but people still feel the need to simplify it.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    I don't understand the hate that so many people seem to have for inquisition. Granted I played a feral Druid for all of wrath, and I'm used to the concept of keeping up a damage buff, it really isn't that bad. Ret has one of the easiest rotations in the game, but people still feel the need to simplify it.
    Totally agree on that one. Inquisition is part of our rotation and holy power generation is way smoother than it was in cata. Inquisition is fine imho. Without divine purpose i find myself having some gaps sometimes in my rotation that bugs me. I think haste will make that a lot smoother in the final tier of content.
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