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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aelthais View Post
    Totally agree on that one. Inquisition is part of our rotation and holy power generation is way smoother than it was in cata. Inquisition is fine imho. Without divine purpose i find myself having some gaps sometimes in my rotation that bugs me. I think haste will make that a lot smoother in the final tier of content.
    The real thing is that the Ret rotation is basically just keeping every ability on CD. Other than inquisition, there's nothing to maintain. Our mana bar is infinite, so resources are never a problem. Every other class in the game has some sort of buff/debuff/resource to maintain, so it's only fair.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  2. #22
    Compared to other classes, Ret has it easy only having to keep Inq up. Keeping it isn't much of a problem other than nostalgic people saying "Remember when we didn't have to manage that?" It adds a bit of complexity that the spec definitely needed after Wrath's facerolling FCFS.

    One of the problems with Ret is most likely HoW and its interaction with AW. Think about it: HoW needs to hit harder than other abilities in order to be worth casting during its special time. Thus, being able to use it during a CD means not only are all the other abilities doing more damage, but the ability that needs to do extra damage to justify its special restricted use time does even more damage. It's not rocket science to get that there will be more burst during AW than just the 20%. But no, it has become a bit of a sacred cow to have HoW used during AW so they're loathe to change it.
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  3. #23
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    I personally, would HATE to see Paladins become a 1h class for Ret. (Though 2h animation in Main hand with Libram in Offhand would make me swoon)

    What I would personally love to see is the Seal+Judgement and Exorcism system worked out from the ground up. I feel that they all could work dynamically together.

    What made me fall in love with the Paladin class when I first rolled it when they game was released was the Seals. I adored it. To my 16 year old self nothing was cooler than putting up Seal of the Crusader, judging, and then putting up Seal of Command. I even liked consumable seals (within reason, system should still exist in some form). Top that off with Consecration (albeit speccing into it) and I was in Heaven.

    I feel we have lost some of that charm, gained it in other areas, but I think we need to go back to Seals, take that as our own again.

    Seals should offer a normal buff effect for the player, upon judgement it should offer a debuff to enemy player (or Friendly, it should work both ways now), and then it should have a new interactive component with Exorcism. This can either be static, but preferably set by the player (think the Diablo 3 Rune system), where you choose the Exorcism effect it has on the target.

    You can either blow Exorcism constantly to get the burst of damage/on demand damage you want, or you can time it and utilize it intelligently to "Exorcize the target and purify them with the Seal laid on them", this could be a slow or a stun for PvP, an AoE effect, it could be a DoT component based off of stacks or judged seal time on target, a damage they deal =heals to you component, anything, they key would be to have it based on the timing of the debuff.

    Then have the HP generators/ HP consumers still in there minus inquisition. Bring back Seal of the Crusader instead, leave holy power out of it.

    I'd bring back Auras too, this time however as on use CD's like Devo, the more I think about it I hate to see them gone, but they just weren't going anywhere. Bring Consecration back too, that was a staple IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Compared to other classes, Ret has it easy only having to keep Inq up. Keeping it isn't much of a problem other than nostalgic people saying "Remember when we didn't have to manage that?" It adds a bit of complexity that the spec definitely needed after Wrath's facerolling FCFS.
    I agree with this, but I rather deal with a Seal than Inq.
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    I don't understand the hate that so many people seem to have for inquisition. Granted I played a feral Druid for all of wrath, and I'm used to the concept of keeping up a damage buff, it really isn't that bad. Ret has one of the easiest rotations in the game, but people still feel the need to simplify it.

    I think the phrase "it isn't really all that bad" speaks volumes.

    The mechanic is dull, boring and doesn't add much complexity to the spec. There are better ways of doing that than implementing a mechanic even Blizzard have dissed in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Compared to other classes, Ret has it easy only having to keep Inq up. Keeping it isn't much of a problem other than nostalgic people saying "Remember when we didn't have to manage that?" It adds a bit of complexity that the spec definitely needed after Wrath's facerolling FCFS.

    One of the problems with Ret is most likely HoW and its interaction with AW. Think about it: HoW needs to hit harder than other abilities in order to be worth casting during its special time. Thus, being able to use it during a CD means not only are all the other abilities doing more damage, but the ability that needs to do extra damage to justify its special restricted use time does even more damage. It's not rocket science to get that there will be more burst during AW than just the 20%. But no, it has become a bit of a sacred cow to have HoW used during AW so they're loathe to change it.
    That isn't a problem.

    The problem is the ability to stack multiple CDs and use them to magnify the effect of long CD offensive moves. It's not the fact you can use HoW during AW. Its the fact you can use AW PLUS GAnK PLUS HA PLUS LH/ES at the same time.

    Of the three CDs, GAnK is perhaps the most boring and the least thematically appropriate; it's also baseline and has the longest CD.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-22 at 10:41 AM.

  5. #25
    Inquisition may be a boring mechanic, but until they bring back the old blessings and seals, it's probably what we have to deal with.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The issue here is burst. There is too much of it and, as a result, sustained damage suffers.

    How do you address that?
    Well, I'll give it a go...

    Burst tends to occur when CDs are popped. Blowing multiple CDs tends to magnify their effectiveness as they often boost each other. To address burst, but still leave overall DPS at an acceptable level, you need to either remove the CDs or reduce their effectiveness.
    Well a CD removal only annoy people, or if damage is nerfed across the board then that means our sustained damage relies on our CDs. So reduced effect is probably the way to go, for argument's sake.

    The problem with reducing their effectiveness is that you end up with a damp squib effect. You get a boost, but one that really isn't worth the excitement.
    Paladins aren't exciting to begin with anyway, to be pedantic. But the only alternatives are to increase the cooldowns, which doesn't solve much except we can use them once or twice per encounter and, in the case of PvP, more balanced. But, that only addresses PvP concerns. I don't think Paladins would enjoy the fact that all of our cooldowns are either gone or above 5 minutes.

    Making GAnK a 10 min CD means it is only available half as often. In addition, with a 3 min AW, it may be more awkward to actually stack both CDs at once.
    HA can be a fun mechanic, but at the same time, it is a third DPS CD on a class that doesn't really need a third DPS CD. You can't lower burst and raise sustained without hitting some CD somewhere.
    Perhaps we should look at the CDs a bit differently. I'll explain below;

    All three CDs - GAnK, AW and HA - raise DPS. AW adds HoW to the rotation and boosts healing; GAnK adds a pet and HA allows more frequent access to finishers. All raise damage, all affect the rotation. HA is a talent and on a short cooldown.
    So how about this;

    -- AW is on a 1 minute cooldown, but only deals 10% extra damage/healing, maintaining its HoW usage, and only lasts 15 seconds. This could be our "Pillar of Frost" so to speak.
    -- HA is on a 3 minute cooldown and maintains its properties.
    -- GAnK becomes a 10min cooldown, but can cast small heals. This will offset the increased cooldown with some survivability.

    Energy works. And there are several variations on the scheme - including rage. The important point is that it'd add the complexity the class needs but Inq doesn't provide, and should be relatively simple to link with HP.
    I fully agree that we need a new resource. Just saying I think a rage/RP mechanic would be more appreciated.

    It's an issue in that if one DPS spec is "broken", the other usually isn't. That option isn't available for Rets.

    EJL
    True enough but if the balance is close between 2H and 1H, as it is with DW/2H Frost DK then it should be fine. Fingers crossed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nonslid View Post
    What if they made the Guardian more "petlike", where it had HP and people could kill it.
    As much as I want to like it... I can't. It sounds great for anything that isn't WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    So just thinking about the 1-hander. Now I know your intention isn't to make paladins and ret specifically another DW class/spec.

    But that does still leave us with an open hand. Does Ret now use a shield? Will we increase our spellpower contributions and use spellpower shields then or just tank shields? Does this mean shields are going to start being itemized the way weapons are - less emphasis on "fun" stats like crit or haste and instead just being all expertise, master and hit?

    Will 1-H ret then have access to SotR? If so will it replace TV or something? How will block figure into this since suddenly Ret can deal DPS level damage with what's essentially tank mitigation?

    Does this mean that Prot now gets a "strength of the light" talent that allows them to equip a 2-hander + shield? (Please say yes, that would make tanking so much nicer and cut down a little bit on bag bloat.)

    Anyway, you've got some good ideas and I'm all on board with getting rid of inquisition too. I don't think you'll find a paladin who isn't.
    The idea was to make it like a fencer or swashbuckler, where they sacrifice a second hand for more maneuverability, hence its Haste build. But I guess an off-hand could be nice. But then you'd have to make new strength-based off-hands...

    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    I don't understand the hate that so many people seem to have for inquisition. Granted I played a feral Druid for all of wrath, and I'm used to the concept of keeping up a damage buff, it really isn't that bad. Ret has one of the easiest rotations in the game, but people still feel the need to simplify it.
    It's mainly because it's boring and flat, our damage is balanced solely around it which sucks considering we're very bursty, and the fact that we have to give up 3 holy power for it, which is fine now because HoPo generation is nice, but we still find ourselves in situations where nothing is off the GCD, so we sit there... waiting for an ability... just to spend it on Inquisition.

  7. #27
    I would like to see a real dps melee spec that using a shield as offhand. That would be something unique and creates room for new options.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    I would like to see a real dps melee spec that using a shield as offhand. That would be something unique and creates room for new options.
    Yeah, that cpt. america feeling. Choosing to go either 2h or 1h/shield similar to frost dks would be fine, too. Using avenger's shield would be somewhat logic, as would templars verdict becoming "Shield Bash", including a satisfying animation that smacks the enemy with your shield, using weapon dmg, bulwark of azzinoth transmogg doing hidden additional dmg though. :P

    Also concerning a new rage-like resouce since we don't even have to consider mana although we are technically using it: ZEAL. Color of resource: ivory. That was easy.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    I'm not sure how that's an issue. I think that any flaws in DPS design, or at least what people consider flaws, can be solved through numbers or just offering an alternative to play style, similar to 2H / DW frost DK.
    Its an issue because while other classes can say,"well x spec is broken, imma respec to y"...Ret paladins cant do that cause we only have 1 dps spec

  10. #30
    @ OP.

    These ideas are all too drastic, we don't need any of that, we need to work on what we have no go back 2 expansions.

    SoT is fine.
    SoR needs to go and HoTR needs to spread censure, easy way to have aoe seal that doesnt suck balls.
    Insight is very good as it is.
    Auras shouldn't be a flat damage buff nor share a cooldown if they're brought back.
    Consecration is a terrible idea, would GCD cap us more than we are atm.
    You're just overcomplicating things people would aoe whatever way pulls more dps.
    Exorcism is already instant.
    Word of Glory is strong as it is, Ret's defense sucks and overshadows any good it is, if you buff it too much it'll break WoG and get it nerfed.
    No inquisition is a terrible idea, would ruin the HP system and t3h n00bs would be happy.


    Honestly you want to change all that it already works.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    I can't think of anyone who actually likes having to keep up a 30 sec buff on a class that has a (small) ramp-up time and is burst, especially one that comes at a cost of a burst cooldown (Templar's Verdict).

    people need to stop complaining about inquisition. in cata inquisition wasn't our problem, resource starvation was, now that they've fixed resource gen issues for ret, you have even less reason to bitch about inquisition.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    people need to stop complaining about inquisition. in cata inquisition wasn't our problem, resource starvation was, now that they've fixed resource gen issues for ret, you have even less reason to bitch about inquisition.
    Just because we have "less of a reason" doesn't mean the reason is completely gone.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 03:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    @ OP.

    These ideas are all too drastic, we don't need any of that, we need to work on what we have no go back 2 expansions.
    Huh, I don't remember ret having a 1H offset two expansion ago...

    SoT is fine.
    True enough, no denying it.

    SoR needs to go and HoTR needs to spread censure, easy way to have aoe seal that doesnt suck balls.
    SoR needs a buff and I honestly wouldn't mind using it should it be decent. HotR spreading censure was already on my "fix" list.

    Insight is very good as it is.
    No denying it but myself and a lot more others are still upset that the multi-proc from HotR got removed. But, if Blizz do buff it as they've said recently a few times, then that's great.

    Auras shouldn't be a flat damage buff nor share a cooldown if they're brought back.
    It's one or the other. If they don't become flat boosts then there's the whole "think of new effects" approach. If they stay as flat boosts then they have to share cooldowns to avoid stacking, which then makes us incredibly OP especially in PvP.

    Consecration is a terrible idea, would GCD cap us more than we are atm.
    How so? I usually have to wait 1-2 seconds before I have any ability come off cooldown, which can be filled in with Consecration, giving us something to use. That and we need an AoE which we can cast freely to use to break stealth detection in PvP or when it'll help in raids, like Lei Shi for example.

    You're just overcomplicating things people would aoe whatever way pulls more dps.
    That happens regardless. And perhaps "overcomplication" is what Ret needs to stop being such a faceroll class.

    Exorcism is already instant.
    I never said it wasn't. If I did I was more than likely referring to Art of War being able to proc instant Flash of Lights again.

    Word of Glory is strong as it is, Ret's defense sucks and overshadows any good it is, if you buff it too much it'll break WoG and get it nerfed.
    The reason WoG is strong is because Ret defense sucks. If it gets boosted and WoG gets nerfed... then who cares? That means we need to heal less, and if we do we can use FoL, and saves our HoPo for Templar's Verdicts.

    No inquisition is a terrible idea, would ruin the HP system and t3h n00bs would be happy.
    Bare in mind calling people "n00bs" is against forum rules, but that doesn't change the fact that Inquisition is disliked almost across the board.

    Honestly you want to change all that it already works.
    I never said it doesn't already work. "rework" by definition means taking something that works and making it work differently. These ideas are to make the class more fun to play and not a whole FCFS + Exo procs faceroll.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    Well a CD removal only annoy people, or if damage is nerfed across the board then that means our sustained damage relies on our CDs. So reduced effect is probably the way to go, for argument's sake.
    Players don't get too annoyed about the removal of various abilities.

    If the goal is to raise sustained damage, burst needs to be lowered. That means the CDs either need to be neutered or removed or both.

    Rets have THREE CDs dedicated towards DPS. Three. All doing essentially he same job, albeit in different ways.
    Does the class need three CDs? No....especially not when the end result is high burst with lowish sustained.

    Yes....you could neuter them, such as reducing CD and effect, but why seek out a damp squib?



    But the only alternatives are to increase the cooldowns, which doesn't solve much except we can use them once or twice per encounter and, in the case of PvP, more balanced.
    Not a bad thing.

    I don't think Paladins would enjoy the fact that all of our cooldowns are either gone or above 5 minutes.
    What I suggested was to basically keep AW as is, but get rid of HA and double the CD of GAnK to 10 minutes. This makes it harder and more awkward to stack CDs, reduces burst potential and burst uptime but ensures the use of CDs is kept meaningful,

    [ quote] AW is on a 1 minute cooldown, but only deals 10% extra damage/healing, maintaining its HoW usage, and only lasts 15 seconds. This could be our "Pillar of Frost" so to speak. [/quote]

    It becomes a damp squib CD that competes with other 1 min CDs such as ES.

    I fully agree that we need a new resource. Just saying I think a rage/RP mechanic would be more appreciated.
    Possibly - but rage and RP mechanics are already present in the other plate classes and HP already provides the build up style resource.
    Either would work.

    EJL

  14. #34
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Remove snapshotting ES on cast and make it work like normal dots + add 1extra tick per Hammer of Wrath cast during its duration as last tick (maximum dmg).
    WoW = Retired Main: Ret Alt(s): War , DK

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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Remove snapshotting ES on cast and make it work like normal dots + add 1extra tick per Hammer of Wrath cast during its duration as last tick (maximum dmg).
    Normal dots snapshot....

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyviroth View Post
    Bare in mind calling people "n00bs" is against forum rules, but that doesn't change the fact that Inquisition is disliked almost across the board.
    It's bear in mind.

    The people who enjoy inquisition or don't mind or care aren't going to crusade around the forums to explain this. I think it is a much needed skill-check for a rather skill-less class. I think the class needs more mechanics along the same lines of this for our dps cap to get any higher.

    For the people who don't like it, glyph of inquisition should have the ability not cost holy power and have a 45 second cooldown.

    For example I would like there to be a Judgement/Censure meta-game to be played with seals.

    I would like a complex aoe rotation as well that works with seal of righteousness.

    Maybe another inquisition-like buff called Divine Storm only usable under seal of righteousness that makes templar's verdict dealt to everyone in our consecration (A 15-20 radius aura like remorsless winter and useable by rets) and Templar's verdict would transform into divine storm visual under this new buff.

    I would also like to mana to mean something and not be tied to our abilities but our utility. Silencing us should not cease our ability to function as a damage dealer but it should keep us from healing or providing utility/cc which should be tied to mana.

    Make sacred shield baseline and don't let ret or prot use it on anyone else. Let them stack. Glyph of sacred shield: 60 second cd, basically a single absorb shield that would be the same as a full sacred shield (which lasts for 30 seconds).

    More to come.

  17. #37
    Simple solution to pve and pvp:

    Rework Mastery:

    Your mastery now increases your strength by x amount and each 1% further increases it by y% amount.

    This will do two things:
    1. Buff sustained - More Str = more Ap = More SP
    2. Improve ret pvp in various ways including: More spell power from ap thus bigger heals and will solve the double deep mastery into res issue.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Simple solution to pve and pvp:

    Rework Mastery:

    Your mastery now increases your strength by x amount and each 1% further increases it by y% amount.

    This will do two things:
    1. Buff sustained - More Str = more Ap = More SP
    2. Improve ret pvp in various ways including: More spell power from ap thus bigger heals and will solve the double deep mastery into res issue.
    Damage isn't exactly the issue for either situation. Its the way the damage is applied and how it is limited by mechanics/other players compared to other classes.

  19. #39
    Stood in the Fire Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    Normal dots snapshot....
    No, they adjust like Censure.
    WoW = Retired Main: Ret Alt(s): War , DK

    Diablo3

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
    Damage isn't exactly the issue for either situation. Its the way the damage is applied and how it is limited by mechanics/other players compared to other classes.
    Our issue as a spec is that our sustained is low. High burst, low sustain. Lowering burst and changing mastery to strength will considerably buff our sustained.
    In pvp more sustained = more constant pressure. Either when we pop cds its a cc marathon, so me personally i would like to see more sustained and lower burst.

    I would like a complex aoe rotation as well that works with seal of righteousness.

    Maybe another inquisition-like buff called Divine Storm only usable under seal of righteousness that makes templar's verdict dealt to everyone in our consecration (A 15-20 radius aura like remorsless winter and useable by rets) and Templar's verdict would transform into divine storm visual under this new buff.
    This will never happen as they already said they want rets to be more of a single target nuker. Atm we can't compete with top aoe specs out there, but we can't do ok aoe by spreading and maintaining censure on multiple targets. Keep in mind that this game takes primerly in consideration new players as well. So over-complex rotations will never fly.

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