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  1. #681
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Aah, I see.. But I will await Nindoriels answer
    It's probably some crap Garrosh said, because if Garrosh yells something stupid, it's "the Horde wiping out stuff".
    But, of course, Varian yelling something stupid is just him being provoked by the Horde and losing his temper

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 09:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    I never expected such blatant misinformation from you Mistuh.

    You're using the speech Garrosh gives as they're heading towards the Twilight Highlands to fight the Twlight's HAMMER, while at the same time omitting the part when he spots the Alliance fleet as a way to excuse his words and actions in the novels and current game.

    At the same time ignoring the fact that that was the split personality WotLK Varian while ignoring the MoP Varian.
    Wow, point made already.

    Him spotting the Alliance fleet and moving to attack it is irrelevant. He isn't calling to wipe out the Alliance, he's calling to wipe out the Twilight's Hammer
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  2. #682
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    Really don't need much of a reason beyond the fact that they are Commies do we ?
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    But, of course, Varian yelling something stupid is just him being provoked by the Horde and losing his temper

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 09:23 AM ----------



    Wow, point made already.

    Him spotting the Alliance fleet and moving to attack it is irrelevant. He isn't calling to wipe out the Alliance, he's calling to wipe out the Twilight's Hammer

    Don;t lump me in with the mouthbreathers.

    My point is that your using the Twilight Highlands intro speech in an attempt to claim that Garrosh is not calling for the extermination of Alliance races, while using Varian's words in Wrath while he's in grief over a presumed Forsaken betrayal which lead to the death of numerous Alliance soldiers AND his closest friend.

    At the start of ToW he only aims to wipe out any Alliance on Kalimdor, main focus being the Nelves, claiming that they have no claim to Kalimdor since they're unwilling to use the resources at their disposal. By the END of the novel he decides that he was thinking too small and that the Alliance has no claim to Azeroth as a whole.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  4. #684
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    I don't think Garrosh wants to wipe out anyone just yet. However, if he thinks some Alliance is in his way to what he wants, he just kills them.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Adorable Miqo'te - (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  5. #685
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Don;t lump me in with the mouthbreathers.

    My point is that your using the Twilight Highlands intro speech in an attempt to claim that Garrosh is not calling for the extermination of Alliance races, while using Varian's words in Wrath while he's in grief over a presumed Forsaken betrayal which lead to the death of numerous Alliance soldiers AND his closest friend.

    At the start of ToW he only aims to wipe out any Alliance on Kalimdor, main focus being the Nelves, claiming that they have no claim to Kalimdor since they're unwilling to use the resources at their disposal. By the END of the novel he decides that he was thinking too small and that the Alliance has no claim to Azeroth as a whole.
    Actually, I was throwing out the Twi-Hi intro as what is going to be thrown out by the Anti-Garrosh Brigade, even though it is not what they assert it is.

    And you've proved my point. When Garrosh says something stupid, it's because he's a bloodthirsty mongrel but when Varian says something stupid, it's because he is compromised in some way and doesn't really mean it.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  6. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    Actually, I was throwing out the Twi-Hi intro as what is going to be thrown out by the Anti-Garrosh Brigade, even though it is not what they assert it is.

    And you've proved my point. When Garrosh says something stupid, it's because he's a bloodthirsty mongrel but when Varian says something stupid, it's because he is compromised in some way and doesn't really mean it.
    Let's be perfectly honest here, there are people who roleplay extremist factions of the alliance in general conversation, the MMO-Champion community is heavily screwed in favour of Alliance.


    Either way, bottom line is.


    Varian is a flip flop mouthpiece with hilariously bad writing and character motivation.

    Garrosh is just a Warlord, simple and because of it, better written.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    Actually, I was throwing out the Twi-Hi intro as what is going to be thrown out by the Anti-Garrosh Brigade, even though it is not what they assert it is.

    And you've proved my point. When Garrosh says something stupid, it's because he's a bloodthirsty mongrel but when Varian says something stupid, it's because he is compromised in some way and doesn't really mean it.

    Again incorrect. They were both asses in Wrath. I will be the first to admit to this, I may not like the Horde but I don't wear blinders. In Wrath Varian was the emo kid that you could never tell how he'd react to any given situation.

    However...

    His lines in UC are understandable due to fact that he was reacting to an event that had only just happened. Can you honestly say that if a gang had killed your best friend and you were in a position to do something about it that you would react in any less of an emotional manner?

    However we've never really been given a reason for Garrosh's shift from the emotional wreck in TBC to his current incarnation. He jumps from wanting what's best for his people, to wanting personal approval, to emulating daddy. This makes him hard to feel for.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  8. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    However we've never really been given a reason for Garrosh's shift from the emotional wreck in TBC to his current incarnation. He jumps from wanting what's best for his people, to wanting personal approval, to emulating daddy. This makes him hard to feel for.
    Actually have you ever done the finishing Nagrand Quest?

    It explains how he jumps from mopey to Waaaaaagh.

    He sees and image of his father fighting, and he is inspired, he wants to be the hero like his father, he wants to save the Orcs people and give them a future.

    Despite his actions.. he is doing exactly that. In a Way, I admire Garrosh, he's done things Thrall would not.. Namely, actually give his people more than a dusty hellhole for a home.

  9. #689
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Again incorrect. They were both asses in Wrath. I will be the first to admit to this, I may not like the Horde but I don't wear blinders. In Wrath Varian was the emo kid that you could never tell how he'd react to any given situation.

    However...

    His lines in UC are understandable due to fact that he was reacting to an event that had only just happened. Can you honestly say that if a gang had killed your best friend and you were in a position to do something about it that you would react in any less of an emotional manner?

    However we've never really been given a reason for Garrosh's shift from the emotional wreck in TBC to his current incarnation. He jumps from wanting what's best for his people, to wanting personal approval, to emulating daddy. This makes him hard to feel for.
    You're doing it though. You're attempting to excuse Varian's words and actions, trying to make it so they aren't what he actually thinks because of this reason or that reason. while accepting Garrosh on the shallow level of his words.

    As for Garrosh, the quick and dirty character building

    1) Raised his whole life being told how awful his father is and how his father damned his people
    2) Thrall finds him, shows him that Grom was a pretty cool guy
    3) Garrosh comes to Azeroth, sees the Orcs being (as he percieves it) oppressed and made poor due to the Alliance
    4) Sees that Thrall is doing nothing to fight back for his people. This is not the Orc way, the Orc way is to defend your home and provide for your people
    5) Garrosh challenges Thrall and leads the campaign in Northrend
    6) Garrosh cuts his teeth in Northrend, mainly against an unmistakably evil force.
    7) Garrosh is made Warchief, a position he didn't think he was apt for, and then has all of his advisors either get themselves killed or abandon him.

    There is a driving motivation behind Garrosh; The Alliance have forced the Horde to live in squalor. The Alliance hates the Horde and views them as monsters. Therefore, the proper Orcish way to deal with it is to undeniably crush the Alliance so they cannot oppress the Horde
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Actually have you ever done the finishing Nagrand Quest?

    It explains how he jumps from mopey to Waaaaaagh.

    He sees and image of his father fighting, and he is inspired, he wants to be the hero like his father, he wants to save the Orcs people and give them a future.

    Despite his actions.. he is doing exactly that. In a Way, I admire Garrosh, he's done things Thrall would not.. Namely, actually give his people more than a dusty hellhole for a home.

    Yes I have. I mean the level of aggressivness he displays, though I suppose it has to do with the fact that Horde players tell the Mag'Har that the Horde RULES Azeroth, and when he travels to Orgrimmar he realises that the truth is less that the fact.

    Either way, the way he is written is one of the main points that people have in pointing out that the Legion didn't really change the orcs as much as people like to make out. Garrosh is an orc untouched by demon blood and raised in the old way. Yet the way he acts is more akin to the old Horde, which raises the question to just really what did the demons change in the orcs.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  11. #691
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Yes I have. I mean the level of aggressivness he displays, though I suppose it has to do with the fact that Horde players tell the Mag'Har that the Horde RULES Azeroth, and when he travels to Orgrimmar he realises that the truth is less that the fact.

    Either way, the way he is written is one of the main points that people have in pointing out that the Legion didn't really change the orcs as much as people like to make out. Garrosh is an orc untouched by demon blood and raised in the old way. Yet the way he acts is more akin to the old Horde, which raises the question to just really what did the demons change in the orcs.
    Demon blood didn't change much. It enhanced what was already there. The Bloodlust is a natural orc phenomenon, which was enhanced by the demon blood
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  12. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    You're doing it though. You're attempting to excuse Varian's words and actions, trying to make it so they aren't what he actually thinks because of this reason or that reason. while accepting Garrosh on the shallow level of his words.

    As for Garrosh, the quick and dirty character building

    1) Raised his whole life being told how awful his father is and how his father damned his people
    2) Thrall finds him, shows him that Grom was a pretty cool guy
    3) Garrosh comes to Azeroth, sees the Orcs being (as he percieves it) oppressed and made poor due to the Alliance
    4) Sees that Thrall is doing nothing to fight back for his people. This is not the Orc way, the Orc way is to defend your home and provide for your people
    5) Garrosh challenges Thrall and leads the campaign in Northrend
    6) Garrosh cuts his teeth in Northrend, mainly against an unmistakably evil force.
    7) Garrosh is made Warchief, a position he didn't think he was apt for, and then has all of his advisors either get themselves killed or abandon him.

    There is a driving motivation behind Garrosh; The Alliance have forced the Horde to live in squalor. The Alliance hates the Horde and views them as monsters. Therefore, the proper Orcish way to deal with it is to undeniably crush the Alliance so they cannot oppress the Horde
    Could not have said it better myself.

    I think the ironic thing is Garrosh has done what he set out to do, he had a Horde, living in stick huts and he forged them into a powerful nation, they have new homes, new technology, a new future.

    Varian basically has zero point, his Kingdom was doing fine without him, the Alliance was doing fine without him. He's basically a useless figurehead who due to Alliance desperately wanting a center figure, has been forced in the middle of the stage and now flip flops his personality to fit what role he's supposed to pander to.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    You're doing it though. You're attempting to excuse Varian's words and actions, trying to make it so they aren't what he actually thinks because of this reason or that reason. while accepting Garrosh on the shallow level of his words.

    As for Garrosh, the quick and dirty character building

    1) Raised his whole life being told how awful his father is and how his father damned his people
    2) Thrall finds him, shows him that Grom was a pretty cool guy
    3) Garrosh comes to Azeroth, sees the Orcs being (as he percieves it) oppressed and made poor due to the Alliance
    4) Sees that Thrall is doing nothing to fight back for his people. This is not the Orc way, the Orc way is to defend your home and provide for your people
    5) Garrosh challenges Thrall and leads the campaign in Northrend
    6) Garrosh cuts his teeth in Northrend, mainly against an unmistakably evil force.
    7) Garrosh is made Warchief, a position he didn't think he was apt for, and then has all of his advisors either get themselves killed or abandon him.

    There is a driving motivation behind Garrosh; The Alliance have forced the Horde to live in squalor. The Alliance hates the Horde and views them as monsters. Therefore, the proper Orcish way to deal with it is to undeniably crush the Alliance so they cannot oppress the Horde

    I'm excusing one incident because it's relevant, if on the flipside garrosh and Saurfang were bros and the Wrathgate incident was perpetrated by a rogue Alliance faction, I'd be backing Garrosh for anything he said due to the extreme emotional duress.

    As for the rest of it, rising the Garrosh's baiting in Dalaran, responding to and escalating the tension in the Argent Trials, etc. Varian was not demonstrating any reason as to why he should be king. If anything he was doing the opposite.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  14. #694
    Banned The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Either way, the way he is written is one of the main points that people have in pointing out that the Legion didn't really change the orcs as much as people like to make out. Garrosh is an orc untouched by demon blood and raised in the old way. Yet the way he acts is more akin to the old Horde, which raises the question to just really what did the demons change in the orcs.
    He is also a son trying to fill the shoes of his father, to bring the Orcs into a golden age where they are not hungry, tired, scared or cold. He wishes a world where the Horde is strong so it can protect his people.

    And he is Doing it the Orc way, through muscle, cunning and Bravado.

    Orcs never pulled any punches, they were always aggresive. However, what makes Garrosh different is he channels these aggresive actions, this Gung Ho attitude into building an empire.


    Orcs never apologise, they simply make things right.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Could not have said it better myself.

    I think the ironic thing is Garrosh has done what he set out to do, he had a Horde, living in stick huts and he forged them into a powerful nation, they have new homes, new technology, a new future.

    Varian basically has zero point, his Kingdom was doing fine without him, the Alliance was doing fine without him. He's basically a useless figurehead who due to Alliance desperately wanting a center figure, has been forced in the middle of the stage and now flip flops his personality to fit what role he's supposed to pander to.

    I think this is the guy you should talk to about blinders, Mistuh.

    All Garrosh had done is slowly destroyed the Horde from the inside out because as far as he is concerned Orcs > All. As for the Varian having done nothing?

    Read all the posts about blizzard neutering the Alliance to be used as the Horde's foil. About how many questlines were scrapped in order to complete OTHER projects. About relegating key lore figures to cheerleaders to advance the Horde storyline.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 06:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    He is also a son trying to fill the shoes of his father, to bring the Orcs into a golden age where they are not hungry, tired, scared or cold. He wishes a world where the Horde is strong so it can protect his people.

    And he is Doing it the Orc way, through muscle, cunning and Bravado.

    Orcs never pulled any punches, they were always aggresive. However, what makes Garrosh different is he channels these aggresive actions, this Gung Ho attitude into building an empire.


    Orcs never apologise, they simply make things right.

    Make things right...

    Okay...lost cause.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  16. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post

    Make things right...

    Okay...lost cause.
    Oh you seem to confuse me with some errant twit who takes sides, I am merely expressing things from Garrosh's own point of view.

    Yes, through his brash actions, his utter disregard of other races and his supreme pigheadedness, he is in fact breaking the very Horde he wished to forge into a powerful world force.

    As for "Making the Alliance Weaker" You really must not have played WoW in Vanilla.. where the Horde was basically nothing but a few stick huts barely managing to survive, while the Alliance was a huge global power whos only problems were internal politics.

    Cataclysm merely leveled the playing field, unless you are far to blind to see that for yourself.

  17. #697
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Cataclysm merely leveled the playing field, unless you are far to blind to see that for yourself.
    They had to kick the alliance a bit in the later X-Pacs, because like you said: The Horde had nothing they could take away w/o exterminating them.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Adorable Miqo'te - (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  18. #698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    They had to kick the alliance a bit in the later X-Pacs, because like you said: The Horde had nothing they could take away w/o exterminating them.
    Exactly. People wanted WARcraft, so they were given it, Apparently people only wanted some Warcraft if it was an orginised United front of Kingdoms against ragged and beaten barbarians.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Exactly. People wanted WARcraft, so they were given it, Apparently people only wanted some Warcraft if it was an orginised United front of Kingdoms against ragged and beaten barbarians.

    Don't know bout the people you're talking about, but I wanted a bit of consistency in the way the war was written. If I'm fighting a losing battle don't have the questgivers telling me that I'm making a difference and at the end of the chain we get a lolulose plot armor ending where everything you did amounts to nothing.

    And you're forgetting that the whole stick huts deal was all the old Horde needed to keep the original Alliance on the backfoot. The Alliance is SUPPOSED to be more technologically advanced. It balances out against the fact that the Horde are physically much stronger.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  20. #700
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Don't know bout the people you're talking about, but I wanted a bit of consistency in the way the war was written. If I'm fighting a losing battle don't have the questgivers telling me that I'm making a difference and at the end of the chain we get a lolulose plot armor ending where everything you did amounts to nothing.

    And you're forgetting that the whole stick huts deal was all the old Horde needed to keep the original Alliance on the backfoot. The Alliance is SUPPOSED to be more technologically advanced. It balances out against the fact that the Horde are physically much stronger.
    Only zones I can think of like that are Gilneas, WPL (though it's tied until the very end) and Stonetalon (where you're playing catchup the whole time).

    Ashenvale they push the Horde back
    Barrens, ok they kinda lose Sbarrens
    Desolace, well the Alli base does get torched but you don't see that as Alliance

    Hell, Alliance dominates Swamp of Sorrows so that's something

    The fact of it all is, is that Horde had so little territory pre-Cata that the only way to make it fair was for the Alliance to lose. And honestly, most of their loses is over in EK where they just become Horde only zones
    Last edited by mistuhbull; 2013-01-17 at 11:33 PM.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

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