Why are the orcs and draenei still at war?

[Haven]

If I'm fighting a losing battle don't have the questgivers telling me that I'm making a difference and at the end of the chain we get a lolulose plot armor ending where everything you did amounts to nothing.

Welcome to reality. Sometimes you lose despite trying.

[rowaasr13]

3) Garrosh comes to Azeroth, sees the Orcs being (as he percieves it) oppressed and made poor due to the Alliance

That's basically entire problem with the Orcs, as I've said many times already. They poor due to their own dumb, incapable of anything but fighting themselves. But in their minds it is ALWAYS due to "someone else".

[Nindoriel]

Who is the Horde trying to wipe out? Because I really missed that part (Seeing as it's not in anything that can even be closely considered as lore).

Garrosh's plan in Tides of War was to attack Theramore and then Darnassus, so he could claim Kalimdor for the Horde in one sweeping motion. He planned to attack the Eastern Kingdoms after that, in order to eliminate the rest of the Alliance forces.

[Combatbulter]

Garrosh's plan in Tides of War was to attack Theramore and then Darnassus, so he could claim Kalimdor for the Horde in one sweeping motion. He planned to attack the Eastern Kingdoms after that, in order to eliminate the rest of the Alliance forces.

No ,his original plan was to take Kalimdor for the horde, only after he got beaten at the shores of Durotar did he decide to ultimately conquer the world.

[Nindoriel]

No ,his original plan was to take Kalimdor for the horde, only after he got beaten at the shores of Durotar did he decide to ultimately conquer the world.

I'm sure he planned to take the Eastern Kingdoms as well. I'm just too lazy to look it up right now.

[Kangodo]

Garrosh's plan in Tides of War was to attack Theramore and then Darnassus, so he could claim Kalimdor for the Horde in one sweeping motion. He planned to attack the Eastern Kingdoms after that, in order to eliminate the rest of the Alliance forces.

So when Garrosh wants to do something, it suddenly is "the Horde", even though the Horde is going to kill him.
And how do you call it when Varian says he wants to kill everyone?

I'm not saying that "The Horde is good and the Alliance is evil".
Both are good compared to the Burning Legion and the big evils we fight.
But both are evil compared to stuff like the Cenarion Circle.

[mistuhbull]

So when Garrosh wants to do something, it suddenly is "the Horde", even though the Horde is going to kill him.
And how do you call it when Varian says he wants to kill everyone?

Varian is clearly emotionally compromised in some way and he doesn't actually mean it

[Combatbulter]

I'm sure he planned to take the Eastern Kingdoms as well. I'm just too lazy to look it up right now.

Look at page 313 in Tides of war, Garrosh original intend was to take Kalimdor, but after his defeat he intends to destroy the Alliance.

[RyanEX]

So when Garrosh wants to do something, it suddenly is "the Horde", even though the Horde is going to kill him.
And how do you call it when Varian says he wants to kill everyone?

I'm not saying that "The Horde is good and the Alliance is evil".
Both are good compared to the Burning Legion and the big evils we fight.
But both are evil compared to stuff like the Cenarion Circle.

Read ToW.

Read about disappointed Baine and Vol'Jin are at how many of their own people along with the orcs cheer for Garrosh after Theramore.

Aside from the other leaders and the few that follow them, the bulk of the Horde follow Garrosh and agree with his intentions. It's only after upcoming events do the general Horde populace begin to want to distance themselves from Garrosh. And it's not because they think what he did was wrong...oh no...it's because they think that his methods with destroy them as well.

And when the Alliance and Varian resort to dropping tactical nukes and using germ warfare against the Horde then we can talk about comparing just how evil both factions are.

[Trassk]

Read ToW.

Read about disappointed Baine and Vol'Jin are at how many of their own people along with the orcs cheer for Garrosh after Theramore.

Aside from the other leaders and the few that follow them, the bulk of the Horde follow Garrosh and agree with his intentions. It's only after upcoming events do the general Horde populace begin to want to distance themselves from Garrosh. And it's not because they think what he did was wrong...oh no...it's because they think that his methods with destroy them as well.

And when the Alliance and Varian resort to dropping tactical nukes and using germ warfare against the Horde then we can talk about comparing just how evil both factions are.

Try reading cycle of hatred, where an orc tells his story of how he was made into a slave by the humans after the first horde fell, how he was pissed and shat about by his masters while they treated him as nothing less then an animal.
To an orc, this is worse then death. From an orcs perspective, it is worse to live in shame then die in honor.

Now, try and tell me why you think its all about one side in this debate and how humans can't be accountable for anything against the horde?

[RyanEX]

Try reading cycle of hatred, where an orc tells his story of how he was made into a slave by the humans after the first horde fell, how he was pissed and shat about by his masters while they treated him as nothing less then an animal.
To an orc, this is worse then death. From an orcs perspective, it is worse to live in shame then die in honor.

Now, try and tell me why you think its all about one side in this debate and how humans can't be accountable for anything against the horde?

If by being held accountable you mean leaving them alive so we can this debate now instead of just holding mass executions for the amusement of everyone who lost family and friends when the orcs first invaded....

Yeah I can hold them responsible for that. Poor orc, being so mistreated after he killed so many for the simply crime of trying to defend what's theirs...Boohoo...

Oh boohoo.

[Aquamonkey]

If by being held accountable you mean leaving them alive so we can this debate now instead of just holding mass executions for the amusement of everyone who lost family and friends when the orcs first invaded....

Yeah I can hold them responsible for that. Poor orc, being so mistreated after he killed so many for the simply crime of trying to defend what's theirs...Boohoo...

Oh boohoo.

The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.

[Kuthe]

Alliance sided by the Alliance, and have decided to stay to help the Alliance.
If they went home chances are, it's filled with more corrupted orcs anyway.

[mistuhbull]

The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.

Or, they could have killed them which the Orcs probably would have preferred

[Aquamonkey]

Or, they could have killed them which the Orcs probably would have preferred

That too, I was trying to list more virtuous alternatives though.

I suppose they could have turned them into gladiators to fight it out with each other. I'm sure the Alliance would have enjoyed watching Orcs fighting to the death for entertainment. This would still be slavery, but the Orcs would have probably liked it.

[mistuhbull]

That too, I was trying to list more virtuous alternatives though.

I suppose they could have turned them into gladiators to fight it out with each other. I'm sure the Alliance would have enjoyed watching Orcs fighting to the death for entertainment. This would still be slavery, but the Orcs would have probably liked it.

Hell Thrall's role as a gladiator (combined with lower bloodlust withdrawls due to not having the Blood in his system) is probably what prevented him from becoming lethargic like the rest

[Trassk]

That too, I was trying to list more virtuous alternatives though.

I suppose they could have turned them into gladiators to fight it out with each other. I'm sure the Alliance would have enjoyed watching Orcs fighting to the death for entertainment. This would still be slavery, but the Orcs would have probably liked it.

instead of living like animals in pens with no spark of life in them. Though, you could say the spark was gone due to the fel taint and how it effected them back then. But yes, any orc worth his salt would have sooner died fighting then live as a lifeless slave. From an orc point of view, it was worse, but nobody here considers that and only thinks it from a human pov.

[RyanEX]

The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.

They couldn't send them back since the Portal was powered down and no one on Azeroth side knew how to activated it. And seeing as how know one knew about Kalimdor at that point there was no other place to put them.

Also, the few that were mistreated does not reflect back on the Alliance as whole, since Terenas put the well being of the orcs before the stability of his own Alliance and sent his own son to make sure that the money put towards making sure the orcs had enough to survive was being spent accordingly. Given the situation that the orcs found themselves in they were damn well fortunate that someone like Terenas was in charge and not their now allies, the Blood Elves, or Greymane.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 12:17 AM ----------

instead of living like animals in pens with no spark of life in them. Though, you could say the spark was gone due to the fel taint and how it effected them back then. But yes, any orc worth his salt would have sooner died fighting then live as a lifeless slave. From an orc point of view, it was worse, but nobody here considers that and only thinks it from a human pov.

And you're looking at it from the pov of an orc who thinks he should still have a say in his life after he lost the war against a people he had been trying to exterminate.

Yes, let's give them weapons and armor to fight for our amusement, let's ignore the fact that by letting them keep that will to fight could come back and bite us in the ass it'd never happen...

Oh yeah...that one orc...

[Wyrt]

The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.

The Dark Portal was closed. They couldn't send them back. There's not exactly a whole lot of land to send the orcs to either. It really came down to locking them up or slaughtering them like the scum they are.

[Granyala]

They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion.

Orcs are like Klingons. Compassion after defeat merely adds insult to injury. Sadly the humans in WoW are much like the humans in Starfleet, they have a very hard time accepting the Orcish/Klingon values.

They either should have executed them all, or they should have sent them back through the portal. What is shown in CoT1 is wrong and it doesn't surprise me one bit that Orcs passionately hate the humans.