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  1. #701
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    If I'm fighting a losing battle don't have the questgivers telling me that I'm making a difference and at the end of the chain we get a lolulose plot armor ending where everything you did amounts to nothing.
    Welcome to reality. Sometimes you lose despite trying.
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    3) Garrosh comes to Azeroth, sees the Orcs being (as he percieves it) oppressed and made poor due to the Alliance
    That's basically entire problem with the Orcs, as I've said many times already. They poor due to their own dumb, incapable of anything but fighting themselves. But in their minds it is ALWAYS due to "someone else".

  3. #703
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Who is the Horde trying to wipe out? Because I really missed that part (Seeing as it's not in anything that can even be closely considered as lore).
    Garrosh's plan in Tides of War was to attack Theramore and then Darnassus, so he could claim Kalimdor for the Horde in one sweeping motion. He planned to attack the Eastern Kingdoms after that, in order to eliminate the rest of the Alliance forces.

  4. #704
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Garrosh's plan in Tides of War was to attack Theramore and then Darnassus, so he could claim Kalimdor for the Horde in one sweeping motion. He planned to attack the Eastern Kingdoms after that, in order to eliminate the rest of the Alliance forces.
    No ,his original plan was to take Kalimdor for the horde, only after he got beaten at the shores of Durotar did he decide to ultimately conquer the world.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  5. #705
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No ,his original plan was to take Kalimdor for the horde, only after he got beaten at the shores of Durotar did he decide to ultimately conquer the world.
    I'm sure he planned to take the Eastern Kingdoms as well. I'm just too lazy to look it up right now.

  6. #706
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Garrosh's plan in Tides of War was to attack Theramore and then Darnassus, so he could claim Kalimdor for the Horde in one sweeping motion. He planned to attack the Eastern Kingdoms after that, in order to eliminate the rest of the Alliance forces.
    So when Garrosh wants to do something, it suddenly is "the Horde", even though the Horde is going to kill him.
    And how do you call it when Varian says he wants to kill everyone?

    I'm not saying that "The Horde is good and the Alliance is evil".
    Both are good compared to the Burning Legion and the big evils we fight.
    But both are evil compared to stuff like the Cenarion Circle.
    Last edited by Kangodo; 2013-01-18 at 05:40 PM.

  7. #707
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    So when Garrosh wants to do something, it suddenly is "the Horde", even though the Horde is going to kill him.
    And how do you call it when Varian says he wants to kill everyone?
    Varian is clearly emotionally compromised in some way and he doesn't actually mean it
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  8. #708
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I'm sure he planned to take the Eastern Kingdoms as well. I'm just too lazy to look it up right now.
    Look at page 313 in Tides of war, Garrosh original intend was to take Kalimdor, but after his defeat he intends to destroy the Alliance.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    So when Garrosh wants to do something, it suddenly is "the Horde", even though the Horde is going to kill him.
    And how do you call it when Varian says he wants to kill everyone?

    I'm not saying that "The Horde is good and the Alliance is evil".
    Both are good compared to the Burning Legion and the big evils we fight.
    But both are evil compared to stuff like the Cenarion Circle.

    Read ToW.

    Read about disappointed Baine and Vol'Jin are at how many of their own people along with the orcs cheer for Garrosh after Theramore.

    Aside from the other leaders and the few that follow them, the bulk of the Horde follow Garrosh and agree with his intentions. It's only after upcoming events do the general Horde populace begin to want to distance themselves from Garrosh. And it's not because they think what he did was wrong...oh no...it's because they think that his methods with destroy them as well.

    And when the Alliance and Varian resort to dropping tactical nukes and using germ warfare against the Horde then we can talk about comparing just how evil both factions are.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  10. #710
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Read ToW.

    Read about disappointed Baine and Vol'Jin are at how many of their own people along with the orcs cheer for Garrosh after Theramore.

    Aside from the other leaders and the few that follow them, the bulk of the Horde follow Garrosh and agree with his intentions. It's only after upcoming events do the general Horde populace begin to want to distance themselves from Garrosh. And it's not because they think what he did was wrong...oh no...it's because they think that his methods with destroy them as well.

    And when the Alliance and Varian resort to dropping tactical nukes and using germ warfare against the Horde then we can talk about comparing just how evil both factions are.
    Try reading cycle of hatred, where an orc tells his story of how he was made into a slave by the humans after the first horde fell, how he was pissed and shat about by his masters while they treated him as nothing less then an animal.
    To an orc, this is worse then death. From an orcs perspective, it is worse to live in shame then die in honor.

    Now, try and tell me why you think its all about one side in this debate and how humans can't be accountable for anything against the horde?

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Try reading cycle of hatred, where an orc tells his story of how he was made into a slave by the humans after the first horde fell, how he was pissed and shat about by his masters while they treated him as nothing less then an animal.
    To an orc, this is worse then death. From an orcs perspective, it is worse to live in shame then die in honor.

    Now, try and tell me why you think its all about one side in this debate and how humans can't be accountable for anything against the horde?

    If by being held accountable you mean leaving them alive so we can this debate now instead of just holding mass executions for the amusement of everyone who lost family and friends when the orcs first invaded....

    Yeah I can hold them responsible for that. Poor orc, being so mistreated after he killed so many for the simply crime of trying to defend what's theirs...Boohoo...

    Oh boohoo.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    If by being held accountable you mean leaving them alive so we can this debate now instead of just holding mass executions for the amusement of everyone who lost family and friends when the orcs first invaded....

    Yeah I can hold them responsible for that. Poor orc, being so mistreated after he killed so many for the simply crime of trying to defend what's theirs...Boohoo...

    Oh boohoo.
    The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

    What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  13. #713
    Pit Lord Kuthe's Avatar
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    Alliance sided by the Alliance, and have decided to stay to help the Alliance.
    If they went home chances are, it's filled with more corrupted orcs anyway.
    We stopped searching for monsters under our beds when we realized that they were inside us.

    Tell me something, my friend. You ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?

  14. #714
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

    What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.
    Or, they could have killed them which the Orcs probably would have preferred
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    Or, they could have killed them which the Orcs probably would have preferred
    That too, I was trying to list more virtuous alternatives though.

    I suppose they could have turned them into gladiators to fight it out with each other. I'm sure the Alliance would have enjoyed watching Orcs fighting to the death for entertainment. This would still be slavery, but the Orcs would have probably liked it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  16. #716
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    That too, I was trying to list more virtuous alternatives though.

    I suppose they could have turned them into gladiators to fight it out with each other. I'm sure the Alliance would have enjoyed watching Orcs fighting to the death for entertainment. This would still be slavery, but the Orcs would have probably liked it.
    Hell Thrall's role as a gladiator (combined with lower bloodlust withdrawls due to not having the Blood in his system) is probably what prevented him from becoming lethargic like the rest
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  17. #717
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    That too, I was trying to list more virtuous alternatives though.

    I suppose they could have turned them into gladiators to fight it out with each other. I'm sure the Alliance would have enjoyed watching Orcs fighting to the death for entertainment. This would still be slavery, but the Orcs would have probably liked it.
    instead of living like animals in pens with no spark of life in them. Though, you could say the spark was gone due to the fel taint and how it effected them back then. But yes, any orc worth his salt would have sooner died fighting then live as a lifeless slave. From an orc point of view, it was worse, but nobody here considers that and only thinks it from a human pov.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

    What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.

    They couldn't send them back since the Portal was powered down and no one on Azeroth side knew how to activated it. And seeing as how know one knew about Kalimdor at that point there was no other place to put them.

    Also, the few that were mistreated does not reflect back on the Alliance as whole, since Terenas put the well being of the orcs before the stability of his own Alliance and sent his own son to make sure that the money put towards making sure the orcs had enough to survive was being spent accordingly. Given the situation that the orcs found themselves in they were damn well fortunate that someone like Terenas was in charge and not their now allies, the Blood Elves, or Greymane.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 12:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    instead of living like animals in pens with no spark of life in them. Though, you could say the spark was gone due to the fel taint and how it effected them back then. But yes, any orc worth his salt would have sooner died fighting then live as a lifeless slave. From an orc point of view, it was worse, but nobody here considers that and only thinks it from a human pov.

    And you're looking at it from the pov of an orc who thinks he should still have a say in his life after he lost the war against a people he had been trying to exterminate.

    Yes, let's give them weapons and armor to fight for our amusement, let's ignore the fact that by letting them keep that will to fight could come back and bite us in the ass it'd never happen...

    Oh yeah...that one orc...
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
    overrides the body's basic
    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

    What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.
    The Dark Portal was closed. They couldn't send them back. There's not exactly a whole lot of land to send the orcs to either. It really came down to locking them up or slaughtering them like the scum they are.

  20. #720
    Elemental Lord Granyala's Avatar
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    They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion.
    Orcs are like Klingons. Compassion after defeat merely adds insult to injury. Sadly the humans in WoW are much like the humans in Starfleet, they have a very hard time accepting the Orcish/Klingon values.

    They either should have executed them all, or they should have sent them back through the portal. What is shown in CoT1 is wrong and it doesn't surprise me one bit that Orcs passionately hate the humans.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Adorable Miqo'te - (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

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