Why are the orcs and draenei still at war?

[Trassk]

That's basically entire problem with the Orcs, as I've said many times already. They poor due to their own dumb, incapable of anything but fighting themselves. But in their minds it is ALWAYS due to "someone else".

No it really, really is down to someone else. When the orcs freed themselves from the oppression of humans and tried to found there own lands in durotar, they were pursued by a fascist who could not leave well enough alone. they tried to make a home for themselves using trees from a forest near to them, but some pansy elves who had a boner for trees wouldn't let them and tried to kill them.

At every turn the orcs trying to get a footing somewhere, the alliance races has always been there to mess it up, so enough is enough.

[Dasani]

No it really, really is down to someone else. When the orcs freed themselves from the oppression of humans and tried to found there own lands in durotar, they were pursued by a fascist who could not leave well enough alone. they tried to make a home for themselves using trees from a forest near to them, but some pansy elves who had a boner for trees wouldn't let them and tried to kill them.

At every turn the orcs trying to get a footing somewhere, the alliance races has always been there to mess it up, so enough is enough.

yeah it's not like those trees were sacred and in lands already owned by the night elves that the orcs invaded right? And why would anyone pursue the horde and not want them to "Get a foothold" somewhere when they've already started two wars at that time and caused countless deaths while those that weren't in camps were meanwhile attacking defenseless villages and sacrificing the people in them to demons. Yeah i dont see any motivation for wanting to be rid of the horde altogether.

Alliance should've executed them ALL instead of putting them in camps. World would be a much better place today. Even at the battle of mount hyjal, everyone would've been better off without orcs being there because Cenarius would've been there and more than mad up for anything the orcs did. Orcs are garbage. Savage, mindless race that tries to take whatever they want by force, they need to be wiped out because you can't live with something like that. You can't reason with or make peace with a race of people who think its their right to take whatever they want and kill anyone who says otherwise. Thrall was the only decent one of them and that was because he was raised by humans.

[mistuhbull]

yeah it's not like those trees were sacred and in lands already owned by the night elves that the orcs invaded right? And why would anyone pursue the horde and not want them to "Get a foothold" somewhere when they've already started two wars at that time and caused countless deaths while those that weren't in camps were meanwhile attacking defenseless villages and sacrificing the people in them to demons. Yeah i dont see any motivation for wanting to be rid of the horde altogether..

And did the Kaldorei tell the Orcs they were desecrating their forest? No. They just started killing them.

[Granyala]

yeah it's not like those trees were sacred and in lands already owned by the night elves that the orcs invaded right?

But the Orcs didn't know that at this time.

Savage, mindless race that tries to take whatever they want by force, they need to be wiped out because you can't live with something like that. You can't reason with or make peace with a race of people who think its their right to take whatever they want and kill anyone who says otherwise.

Now you're just unfair. The Mag'har Orcs may be relatively primitive compared to the Draenei, but they were peaceful.
Also Thrall is an excellent example, that with proper education, Orcs can be quite civilized and agreeable.

Yeah the average Grunt doesn't have much brains. That's because they are raised into total and unquestioning obedience to the Warchief.

I think Orcs have potential to become much more than what they are now, IF they get that chance.

[Wyrt]

The Mag'har Orcs may be relatively primitive compared to the Draenei, but they were peaceful.

Not really. There's a quest in Hellfire where a draenei goes to talk to the Mag'har and they tell him not to return or they'd kill him. Though that might be as peaceful as orcs get.

[Granyala]

Not really. There's a quest in Hellfire where a draenei goes to talk to the Mag'har and they tell him not to return or they'd kill him. Though that might be as peaceful as orcs get.

1) We don't know where in the timeline that conversation takes place
2) Relations between Draenei and Orcs were relatively cool. Basically both just took care of their own stuff and didn't have that much exchange.

[Aquamonkey]

Alliance should've executed them ALL instead of putting them in camps. World would be a much better place today. Even at the battle of mount hyjal, everyone would've been better off without orcs being there because Cenarius would've been there and more than mad up for anything the orcs did. Orcs are garbage. Savage, mindless race that tries to take whatever they want by force, they need to be wiped out because you can't live with something like that. You can't reason with or make peace with a race of people who think its their right to take whatever they want and kill anyone who says otherwise. Thrall was the only decent one of them and that was because he was raised by humans.

Good luck fighting the Legion without the Orcs. I hope you like oblivion.

[Granyala]

Good luck fighting the Legion without the Orcs. I hope you like oblivion.

Good luck fighting the Legion with the Orcs. I hope you like oblivion.

Seriously. You don't expect us to be able to defeat an army as vast as the burning legion using conventional warfare, do you? oO
We wouldn't even stand a glimmer of a chance in a frontal assault of Argus. They could drown us in Numbers a million times over.

[Aquamonkey]

Good luck fighting the Legion with the Orcs. I hope you like oblivion.

Seriously. You don't expect us to be able to defeat an army as vast as the burning legion using conventional warfare, do you? oO
We wouldn't even stand a glimmer of a chance in a frontal assault of Argus. They could drown us in Numbers a million times over.

It has been prophesied that an Army of the Light would defeat the Legion. It includes Orcs.

[Granyala]

It has been prophesied that an Army of the Light would defeat the Legion. It includes Orcs.

Source?

That prophecy doesn't say that we need the Orcs brute strength to do so.
It may very well be that they have to develop a bit further, before they can be integrated in such an army.

[Zaphiroc]

Source?

That prophecy doesn't say that we need the Orcs brute strength to do so.
It may very well be that they have to develop a bit further, before they can be integrated in such an army.

Keep in mind that Broxigar the Red is the only being in existence to have hurt Sargeras. It was barely a tiny cut, but still... Also powerful shaman like Thrall would be extremely useful in an army of the light. To discount the Orcs because of past wrong doings would be wrong. Most just follow orders, as do the alliance, who are just as prejudice. Just remember Garithos.

[Aquamonkey]

Source?

That prophecy doesn't say that we need the Orcs brute strength to do so.
It may very well be that they have to develop a bit further, before they can be integrated in such an army.

"One of the Prophet Velen's many visions was of the Army of the Light: a grand coalition of humans, dwarves, gnomes, night elves, worgen, orcs, tauren, trolls, blood elves -- and even the undead, and the goblins. The draenei themselves are fortold as the backbone of this mighty army, with a numerous amount of naaru joining the fray against the darkness, along with an innumerable amount of dragons." http://www.wowpedia.org/Army_of_the_Light

[Trassk]

And did the Kaldorei tell the Orcs they were desecrating their forest? No. They just started killing them.

Exactly.

How many forests have you gone into and thought 'hey, maybe these tress are sacred to some pansy ass elves so she should respect it!'. NO, I were trying to build a home.

[Granyala]

Thanks Aqua^^

Keep in mind that Broxigar the Red is the only being in existence to have hurt Sargeras. It was barely a tiny cut, but still... Also powerful shaman like Thrall would be extremely useful in an army of the light. To discount the Orcs because of past wrong doings would be wrong. Most just follow orders, as do the alliance, who are just as prejudice. Just remember Garithos.

As I said: The current Orcs need to grow a bit.
Actually all the races have to grow. They all have to overcome their grudges against eachother if they wish to become a cohesive fighting force.

TBC and Wrath had an uneasy truce. 50% of the time we were still watching our backs, checking if the other wanted to put a dagger in it.

What we need to succeed is loyalty, friendship. We have to stand as one. We have to fight as one and we have to be able to completely trust eachother.

Due to the PvP oriented nature and the sergregation of the factions in WoW, I think it is highly unlikely that we will see it like that in game. :/

[RyanEX]

Keep in mind that Broxigar the Red is the only being in existence to have hurt Sargeras. It was barely a tiny cut, but still... Also powerful shaman like Thrall would be extremely useful in an army of the light. To discount the Orcs because of past wrong doings would be wrong. Most just follow orders, as do the alliance, who are just as prejudice. Just remember Garithos.

With a weapon created by Malfurion. I think it had more to do with the weapon over who was using it. Not to say he didn't have skillz lasting long enough for Sargeras to take notice.

[Nindoriel]

So when Garrosh wants to do something, it suddenly is "the Horde", even though the Horde is going to kill him.
And how do you call it when Varian says he wants to kill everyone?

I'm not saying that "The Horde is good and the Alliance is evil".
Both are good compared to the Burning Legion and the big evils we fight.
But both are evil compared to stuff like the Cenarion Circle.

Yeah since Garrosh has the support of the Horde. I'm aware that there are people who don't support him, but since Theramore happened, that didn't really change a lot. And don't forget that Garrosh has people, who oppose him, not of his plan to conquer the world, but because of his methods and how he throws away the lives of his people and those of his allies. If he attacked and conquered Theramore in an honorable way I'm sure he wouldn't meet this kind of opposition. I don't think there are lot of people in the Horde, who generally have a problem with his plan of conquering Azeroth for the Horde.

As for Varian, what he did was phantasize about what kind of world it could be without the Horde, and that happened immediately after the Wrathgate incident. And that whole incident reminded him of what the Horde has done to Azeroth since they arrived. While I'm sure that he really felt this way, he didn't make any concrete plan like Garrosh and most importantly he didn't act it out.

And then you also have to consider that today's Varian has changed. His current view on the matter is that there can't be peace without Garrosh as Warchief. Of course he'll continue to fight the Horde, but he 's not gonna wipe them out.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 09:52 AM ----------

Try reading cycle of hatred, where an orc tells his story of how he was made into a slave by the humans after the first horde fell, how he was pissed and shat about by his masters while they treated him as nothing less then an animal.
To an orc, this is worse then death. From an orcs perspective, it is worse to live in shame then die in honor.

Now, try and tell me why you think its all about one side in this debate and how humans can't be accountable for anything against the horde?

Play WC1 and see how the orcs came to Azeroth without any provocation and started killing innocents. If people act like animals, you treat them like animals.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 09:55 AM ----------

The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.

Send them back to the portal where they can gather together and attack them again. Are you crazy? It was either imprison them or kill them. The humans chose to imprison them. They were as much slaves as prisoners in our real world are. Do yolu want to argue against that, too?

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 10:17 AM ----------

instead of living like animals in pens with no spark of life in them. Though, you could say the spark was gone due to the fel taint and how it effected them back then. But yes, any orc worth his salt would have sooner died fighting then live as a lifeless slave. From an orc point of view, it was worse, but nobody here considers that and only thinks it from a human pov.

If they died then and there, there would be no or almost no orcs on Azeroth now. At least there would be no Horde as we know it. Which brings up an interesting idea I had. Is it really right that the orcs were freed by Thrall? I mean I feel with that guy, after what he has been through, being captured as an infant, being a slave and a gladiator - he certainly has suffered a lot and none of it was in any way justified. He was innocent, but the people he freed were not. They took part in the first and second war. They were captured for that reason. Why should they be set free again? Thrall was breaking into prisons and freeing murderers. Now those orcs are free and killling Alliance again.

[Aquamonkey]

Play WC1 and see how the orcs came to Azeroth without any provocation and started killing innocents. If people act like animals, you treat them like animals.

The Orcs didn't attack of their own accord, they were enslaved by the Legion.

Send them back to the portal where they can gather together and attack them again. Are you crazy? It was either imprison them or kill them. The humans chose to imprison them. They were as much slaves as prisoners in our real world are. Do yolu want to argue against that, too?

"Thrall was found by human soldiers and raised as a slave and gladiator." -WC3 Manual

[RyanEX]

The Orcs didn't attack of their own accord, they were enslaved by the Legion.


"Thrall was found by human soldiers and raised as a slave and gladiator." -WC3 Manual

This whole enslaved bit is being overused.

The orcs on the whole didn't know or care that they were enslaved. They relished killing Draenei before they even drank the blood. They willingly embraced Fel magic, viewing it as more powerful before most of them realised that they were losing their connection to their old shamanism ways. There was no demon at their back whipping them into invading Azeroth, they invaded due to their world being a mess and Gul'dan's link to a Sargeras possessed Medivh.

Even after Doomhammer took over control he did nothing to improve the situation. And before you go on about how he had no choice...the Dark Portal was still active, they could've gone back or done what Ner'Zhul intended by going to other worlds.

He could've used the fact that Garona was close the Varian's father to negotiate with the humans. Instead he allowed Gul'Dan to have her kill him. The orcs have had numerous chances, but they simply keep fucking them up because they believe everyone should think like them, when they're the only race in both factions obsessed with the whole victory or death gig.

[rowaasr13]

But both are evil compared to stuff like the Cenarion Circle.

Are we talking about that Cenarion Circle that you were killing as Horde both before AND after Cataclysm and that always had exactly 0 (zero) NPC hostile to Alliance? See, Horde don't like them. They must be evil too.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 04:58 AM ----------

The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.

Just as I've mentioned above: anything less than personal palace and reverence is just LESS THAN ENOUGH. Do you murder someone who give you $10, because they didn't gave you all of their belongings too?

[Aquamonkey]

This whole enslaved bit is being overused.

The orcs on the whole didn't know or care that they were enslaved. They relished killing Draenei before they even drank the blood. They willingly embraced Fel magic, viewing it as more powerful before most of them realised that they were losing their connection to their old shamanism ways. There was no demon at their back whipping them into invading Azeroth, they invaded due to their world being a mess and Gul'dan's link to a Sargeras possessed Medivh.

Even after Doomhammer took over control he did nothing to improve the situation. And before you go on about how he had no choice...the Dark Portal was still active, they could've gone back or done what Ner'Zhul intended by going to other worlds.

He could've used the fact that Garona was close the Varian's father to negotiate with the humans. Instead he allowed Gul'Dan to have her kill him. The orcs have had numerous chances, but they simply keep fucking them up because they believe everyone should think like them, when they're the only race in both factions obsessed with the whole victory or death gig.

I'm just going by the text. Blizzard is the one who says the Orcs were enslaved by the Legion, then humans.

Would they have invaded Azeroth for the glory of it without the Blood Curse? Maybe, maybe not. There is no way to know. They coexisted just fine with the Draenei for 1000 years. The USA is supposed to be this bastion of modern civilization and we can't go 10 years without invading someone.