Why are the orcs and draenei still at war?

[Granyala]

It has been prophesied that an Army of the Light would defeat the Legion. It includes Orcs.

Source?

That prophecy doesn't say that we need the Orcs brute strength to do so.
It may very well be that they have to develop a bit further, before they can be integrated in such an army.

[Deleted]

Source?

That prophecy doesn't say that we need the Orcs brute strength to do so.
It may very well be that they have to develop a bit further, before they can be integrated in such an army.

Keep in mind that Broxigar the Red is the only being in existence to have hurt Sargeras. It was barely a tiny cut, but still... Also powerful shaman like Thrall would be extremely useful in an army of the light. To discount the Orcs because of past wrong doings would be wrong. Most just follow orders, as do the alliance, who are just as prejudice. Just remember Garithos.

[Aquamonkey]

Source?

That prophecy doesn't say that we need the Orcs brute strength to do so.
It may very well be that they have to develop a bit further, before they can be integrated in such an army.

"One of the Prophet Velen's many visions was of the Army of the Light: a grand coalition of humans, dwarves, gnomes, night elves, worgen, orcs, tauren, trolls, blood elves -- and even the undead, and the goblins. The draenei themselves are fortold as the backbone of this mighty army, with a numerous amount of naaru joining the fray against the darkness, along with an innumerable amount of dragons." http://www.wowpedia.org/Army_of_the_Light

[Trassk]

And did the Kaldorei tell the Orcs they were desecrating their forest? No. They just started killing them.

Exactly.

How many forests have you gone into and thought 'hey, maybe these tress are sacred to some pansy ass elves so she should respect it!'. NO, I were trying to build a home.

[Granyala]

Thanks Aqua^^

Keep in mind that Broxigar the Red is the only being in existence to have hurt Sargeras. It was barely a tiny cut, but still... Also powerful shaman like Thrall would be extremely useful in an army of the light. To discount the Orcs because of past wrong doings would be wrong. Most just follow orders, as do the alliance, who are just as prejudice. Just remember Garithos.

As I said: The current Orcs need to grow a bit.
Actually all the races have to grow. They all have to overcome their grudges against eachother if they wish to become a cohesive fighting force.

TBC and Wrath had an uneasy truce. 50% of the time we were still watching our backs, checking if the other wanted to put a dagger in it.

What we need to succeed is loyalty, friendship. We have to stand as one. We have to fight as one and we have to be able to completely trust eachother.

Due to the PvP oriented nature and the sergregation of the factions in WoW, I think it is highly unlikely that we will see it like that in game. :/

[RyanEX]

Keep in mind that Broxigar the Red is the only being in existence to have hurt Sargeras. It was barely a tiny cut, but still... Also powerful shaman like Thrall would be extremely useful in an army of the light. To discount the Orcs because of past wrong doings would be wrong. Most just follow orders, as do the alliance, who are just as prejudice. Just remember Garithos.

With a weapon created by Malfurion. I think it had more to do with the weapon over who was using it. Not to say he didn't have skillz lasting long enough for Sargeras to take notice.

[Deleted]

So when Garrosh wants to do something, it suddenly is "the Horde", even though the Horde is going to kill him.
And how do you call it when Varian says he wants to kill everyone?

I'm not saying that "The Horde is good and the Alliance is evil".
Both are good compared to the Burning Legion and the big evils we fight.
But both are evil compared to stuff like the Cenarion Circle.

Yeah since Garrosh has the support of the Horde. I'm aware that there are people who don't support him, but since Theramore happened, that didn't really change a lot. And don't forget that Garrosh has people, who oppose him, not of his plan to conquer the world, but because of his methods and how he throws away the lives of his people and those of his allies. If he attacked and conquered Theramore in an honorable way I'm sure he wouldn't meet this kind of opposition. I don't think there are lot of people in the Horde, who generally have a problem with his plan of conquering Azeroth for the Horde.

As for Varian, what he did was phantasize about what kind of world it could be without the Horde, and that happened immediately after the Wrathgate incident. And that whole incident reminded him of what the Horde has done to Azeroth since they arrived. While I'm sure that he really felt this way, he didn't make any concrete plan like Garrosh and most importantly he didn't act it out.

And then you also have to consider that today's Varian has changed. His current view on the matter is that there can't be peace without Garrosh as Warchief. Of course he'll continue to fight the Horde, but he 's not gonna wipe them out.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 09:52 AM ----------

Try reading cycle of hatred, where an orc tells his story of how he was made into a slave by the humans after the first horde fell, how he was pissed and shat about by his masters while they treated him as nothing less then an animal.
To an orc, this is worse then death. From an orcs perspective, it is worse to live in shame then die in honor.

Now, try and tell me why you think its all about one side in this debate and how humans can't be accountable for anything against the horde?

Play WC1 and see how the orcs came to Azeroth without any provocation and started killing innocents. If people act like animals, you treat them like animals.

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 09:55 AM ----------

The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.

Send them back to the portal where they can gather together and attack them again. Are you crazy? It was either imprison them or kill them. The humans chose to imprison them. They were as much slaves as prisoners in our real world are. Do yolu want to argue against that, too?

---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 10:17 AM ----------

instead of living like animals in pens with no spark of life in them. Though, you could say the spark was gone due to the fel taint and how it effected them back then. But yes, any orc worth his salt would have sooner died fighting then live as a lifeless slave. From an orc point of view, it was worse, but nobody here considers that and only thinks it from a human pov.

If they died then and there, there would be no or almost no orcs on Azeroth now. At least there would be no Horde as we know it. Which brings up an interesting idea I had. Is it really right that the orcs were freed by Thrall? I mean I feel with that guy, after what he has been through, being captured as an infant, being a slave and a gladiator - he certainly has suffered a lot and none of it was in any way justified. He was innocent, but the people he freed were not. They took part in the first and second war. They were captured for that reason. Why should they be set free again? Thrall was breaking into prisons and freeing murderers. Now those orcs are free and killling Alliance again.

[Aquamonkey]

Play WC1 and see how the orcs came to Azeroth without any provocation and started killing innocents. If people act like animals, you treat them like animals.

The Orcs didn't attack of their own accord, they were enslaved by the Legion.

Send them back to the portal where they can gather together and attack them again. Are you crazy? It was either imprison them or kill them. The humans chose to imprison them. They were as much slaves as prisoners in our real world are. Do yolu want to argue against that, too?

"Thrall was found by human soldiers and raised as a slave and gladiator." -WC3 Manual

[RyanEX]

The Orcs didn't attack of their own accord, they were enslaved by the Legion.


"Thrall was found by human soldiers and raised as a slave and gladiator." -WC3 Manual

This whole enslaved bit is being overused.

The orcs on the whole didn't know or care that they were enslaved. They relished killing Draenei before they even drank the blood. They willingly embraced Fel magic, viewing it as more powerful before most of them realised that they were losing their connection to their old shamanism ways. There was no demon at their back whipping them into invading Azeroth, they invaded due to their world being a mess and Gul'dan's link to a Sargeras possessed Medivh.

Even after Doomhammer took over control he did nothing to improve the situation. And before you go on about how he had no choice...the Dark Portal was still active, they could've gone back or done what Ner'Zhul intended by going to other worlds.

He could've used the fact that Garona was close the Varian's father to negotiate with the humans. Instead he allowed Gul'Dan to have her kill him. The orcs have had numerous chances, but they simply keep fucking them up because they believe everyone should think like them, when they're the only race in both factions obsessed with the whole victory or death gig.

[rowaasr13]

But both are evil compared to stuff like the Cenarion Circle.

Are we talking about that Cenarion Circle that you were killing as Horde both before AND after Cataclysm and that always had exactly 0 (zero) NPC hostile to Alliance? See, Horde don't like them. They must be evil too.

---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 04:58 AM ----------

The Orcs were slaves to the Legion when they invaded.

What a civilization does to it's defeated enemies speaks to how virtuous they truly are. The Alliance didn't have to enslave the Orcs after the war was over. They could have sent them back through the portal to their homeworld. They could have tried to rehabilitate them and treat them with compassion. They could have deported them from Human lands. Or they could have incarcerated them and NOT MADE THEM SLAVES.

Just as I've mentioned above: anything less than personal palace and reverence is just LESS THAN ENOUGH. Do you murder someone who give you $10, because they didn't gave you all of their belongings too?

[Aquamonkey]

This whole enslaved bit is being overused.

The orcs on the whole didn't know or care that they were enslaved. They relished killing Draenei before they even drank the blood. They willingly embraced Fel magic, viewing it as more powerful before most of them realised that they were losing their connection to their old shamanism ways. There was no demon at their back whipping them into invading Azeroth, they invaded due to their world being a mess and Gul'dan's link to a Sargeras possessed Medivh.

Even after Doomhammer took over control he did nothing to improve the situation. And before you go on about how he had no choice...the Dark Portal was still active, they could've gone back or done what Ner'Zhul intended by going to other worlds.

He could've used the fact that Garona was close the Varian's father to negotiate with the humans. Instead he allowed Gul'Dan to have her kill him. The orcs have had numerous chances, but they simply keep fucking them up because they believe everyone should think like them, when they're the only race in both factions obsessed with the whole victory or death gig.

I'm just going by the text. Blizzard is the one who says the Orcs were enslaved by the Legion, then humans.

Would they have invaded Azeroth for the glory of it without the Blood Curse? Maybe, maybe not. There is no way to know. They coexisted just fine with the Draenei for 1000 years. The USA is supposed to be this bastion of modern civilization and we can't go 10 years without invading someone.

[Powerogue]

well the draenei met the alliance night elves, thought they were pretty cool, but before that met some blood elves, who were more allied with Kel'thas but close enough for the sake of building that early on faction tension.

[Deleted]

The Orcs didn't attack of their own accord, they were enslaved by the Legion.


"Thrall was found by human soldiers and raised as a slave and gladiator." -WC3 Manual

So they shouldn't be punished because they were manipulated by demons?

Thrall, of course is an exception. Most of the orcs were not born into captivity.

[Tenjen]

Not true. Even high Eredar lords can be redeemed, if they so desire. I suggest you do the following quest line:

Socrethar's Shadow

statistical outliers will always exist. anamolistic events contrary to the stated event but these are not contributive to the salvation of the majority as a whole.

Also i remember that quest and it doesnt count cause the draenai in question was a very recent convert given some chaotic power who spent the majority of his life as a light following draenai (who despaired due to the loss of close-ones {he's originally found trying to vainly resurrect a fallen ally over and over} and his doubts due to the inclusion of the blood elf faction who are individually responsible for hte death of people he knows). He's not a true Manari and wasnt truely given the whole 9 yards of curruption and twisting by the legion to become one of their own. What was the event that should have been his moral event horizon, (the death of the priestess) instead galvanized his true faith and beliefs and he made up for his mistake.

hardly a manari, let alone an Eredar or high eredar lord (respecting the disassociation Draenai have with their previous names)

the one who was an Eredar lord (responsible for turning the draenai or atleast having tried) got obliterated

[Granyala]

The USA is supposed to be this bastion of modern civilization and we can't go 10 years without invading someone.

Haha PWN'D ^_^

Also i remember that quest and it doesnt count cause the draenai in question was a very recent convert given some chaotic power who spent the majority of his life as a light following draenai (who despaired due to the loss of close-ones {he's originally found trying to vainly resurrect a fallen ally over and over} and his doubts due to the inclusion of the blood elf faction who are individually responsible for hte death of people he knows). He's not a true Manari and wasnt truely given the whole 9 yards of curruption and twisting by the legion to become one of their own. What was the event that should have been his moral event horizon, (the death of the priestess) instead galvanized his true faith and beliefs and he made up for his mistake.

You REALLY should do the Quest again and read the dialogue this time!

They offer SOCRETHAR HIMSELF (the big red mean dude) salvation if he wants it.
But of course he doesn't want it.
The other, freshly fallen Draenei that only gets soft when Socrethar kills Ishanah and is subsequently destroyed by his master for rezzing her, is not the one I'm talking about.

[Aquamonkey]

So they shouldn't be punished because they were manipulated by demons?

Thrall, of course is an exception. Most of the orcs were not born into captivity.

The Legion had the Orcs hopped on psychoactive drugs. IRL laws, people can't give consent when someone slips them psychoactive drugs (statutory rape, aka date rape). It's a mitigating circumstance that should be taken into account when punishment is being decided.

Thrall wasn't born into captivity. He was found as a baby after his parents were killed.

[Granyala]

The Legion had the Orcs hopped on psychoactive drugs. IRL laws, people can't give consent when someone slips them psychoactive drugs (statutory rape, aka date rape). It's a mitigating circumstance that should be taken into account when punishment is being decided.

Which is why my priestess doesn't blame the average grunt for what they did. She hates them, nonetheless, but she doesn't seek retribution.
Their leaders, however, who made a conscious choice are an entire other matter.

[Deleted]

The Legion had the Orcs hopped on psychoactive drugs. IRL laws, people can't give consent when someone slips them psychoactive drugs (statutory rape, aka date rape). It's a mitigating circumstance that should be taken into account when punishment is being decided.

Thrall wasn't born into captivity. He was found as a baby after his parents were killed.

The demon blood only enhances the orcs' bloodlust. And I don't think, thatz if an agressive person willingly takes drugs that enhances his agressiveness he should just go out of that whole deal unpunished. And even without the demon blood the Legion would've been able to instrumentalize them. And people have argued before that in the Second War they weren't controlled by demons anymore anyway. Since they were led by an uncorrupted Orgrim Doomhammer, who fought for his people and not for the Legion, a bit of demonblood does not free the orcs of their guilt.

For Thrall it was almost the same as being born into captivity since he never knew anything else, don't be such a smartass.

[Deadite]

a bit of demonblood does not free the orcs of their guilt.

If the Draenei had simply told the Orcs about Kil'jaeden then things would have been different. Lets also not forget the Velen sent most of his own people to be slaughtered in Shattrath to save his own ass. Hundreds of worlds have been fed to the Legion thanks to the Draenei. They are hardly innocent little lambs in all of this.

[Aquamonkey]

The demon blood only enhances the orcs' bloodlust. And I don't think, thatz if an agressive person willingly takes drugs that enhances his agressiveness he should just go out of that whole deal unpunished. And even without the demon blood the Legion would've been able to instrumentalize them. And people have argued before that in the Second War they weren't controlled by demons anymore anyway. Since they were led by an uncorrupted Orgrim Doomhammer, who fought for his people and not for the Legion, a bit of demonblood does not free the orcs of their guilt.

For Thrall it was almost the same as being born into captivity since he never knew anything else, don't be such a smartass.

The Orcs had so much blood lust that they peacefully coexisted with the Draenei for almost 1000 years. There were also Orcs who questioned their war with the Draenei.

The Orcs drank the Blood because they thought it was steroids. They didn't know it would warp their minds. Only Gul'dan knew this when he offered it to them. Without the Blood, the Legion could only use the Orcs by impersonating their ancestors and spirits.

"Behold my lieutenant, Mannoroth. Well has he served me and well shall he continue to serve. On other worlds, they call him the Destructor. But here, he is the savior. Gul'dan," purred Kil’jaeden, and suddenly Gul'dan felt weak and sick again. "You know what I am offering your people."
Gul'dan swallowed hard. He did not dare glance at Ner'zhul, whose gaze he felt boring into his back.
Yes, he knew well what Kil’jaeden was offering. Power beyond imagining . . . and slavery for eternity. Kil’jaeden had offered the former to Ner'zhul in exchange for the latter, and Ner'zhul, the coward, had balked. He had not wanted to doom his people. Gul'dan was untroubled by such scruples.

Doomhammer didn't agree with the war against the Draenei and never trusted Gul'dan. I'm not sure why he continued to fight the Humans after he learned of Gul'dan's machinations, destroyed the Shadow Council, and took over the Horde. Perhaps he succumbed to the madness and blood lust that surrounded him.