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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    rupture does so little damage that snapshotting it at high agi values doesn't offer a lot of potential for dps improvement
    It would be preferable if someone ran the numbers, but I'm inclined to agree. Rupture does 2-3% of total damage, and we're talking about min/maxing only a portion of that. Back in cata when combat was best spec, many rogues didn't bother to Rupture for the potential 1% DPS boost, and this case seems even narrower.

    The real damage comes from Venomous Wounds, but like I posted earlier that damage is reflective of your current AP - premature clipping won't change anything there.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor
    Recruiting a lock/ele to wrap up our Garrosh progression and going into Warlords. PM me or visit our website for more information.

  2. #202
    Taking fierydemise's rough numbers, and waving a napking around...

    If clipping 2 ticks requires rupture to do ~50% more damage, then clipping 8 ticks will require rupture to do ~200% more damage.
    The last stack of renataki's very roughly multiplies your agility by 1.5, which, again very roughly, multiplies your rupture damage by 3. Substract the damage of the rupture you're clipping to get the same ~200% figure.

    So this very rough and barely ready calculation would suggest it would be worth clipping rupture when there are less than 8 ticks left if you're on your last stack of renataki's.

    I'd have guessed it wouldn't be worth clipping rupture by that much, so we might be off on something there. And as everyone has said, the dps gain would be less than minimal (a small percent of a 2% of dps = not worth it).

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    It would be preferable if someone ran the numbers, but I'm inclined to agree. Rupture does 2-3% of total damage, and we're talking about min/maxing only a portion of that. Back in cata when combat was best spec, many rogues didn't bother to Rupture for the potential 1% DPS boost, and this case seems even narrower.

    The real damage comes from Venomous Wounds, but like I posted earlier that damage is reflective of your current AP - premature clipping won't change anything there.
    the reason why VW is so powerful also stems from the energy it gives. it's basically 220 energy on average every minute, which means another 4 mutilates, another 2 envenoms, and the extra poison procs from the mutilates and the envenom uptime.

    but yeah, rupture should be up at all times with as little clipping as possible, preferably on multiple targets if they all need to die. it does not really matter how much stats you have, because it doe very little damage in itself. it's the indirect damage from VW and the energy that gives that makes rupture so important.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-03 at 10:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Some have to perform well. Others have to break World of Logs for a decent rank.
    how the hell did you run a 10M LFR? isn't that 25 only?
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  4. #204

    Burst Opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Long duration (450 +/-20%)
    Mut > SnD > Shadow Blades> Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields:199,079 dps (error: 134dps)
    Distribution - Max: 226,300, min: 176,284 - Range: 50,016

    Mut > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Shadow Blades (*)> Standard Rotation
    Yields: 199,265 dps (error: 134dps)
    Distribution - Max: 226,455 min: 180,126 - Range: 46,329

    Mut > Shadow Blades> Rupture > Mut > SnD> Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields: 198,805 dps (error: 134dps)
    Distribution - Max: 230,443, min: 178,454 - Range: 51,989


    (*) - It is marginally better to wait for the GCD to end before using Shadow Blades here

    Borrowed my old formatting and added range (a higher range means results will be more inconsistent each time you try the opener).

    If people would like me to run this again on short duration (gives a nice view of burst and a "closer" view of the opener) as was done before, let me know.
    If you have the time I'd be interested in the short duration view of this and had a question.

    I've been considering the best opener for situations where max dps is important in the opener (for example first quillen on Iron Qon HC) and obviously in situations like that you will certainly be pre-potting. Do the numbers above assume pre-potting out of interest? It also got me wondering if, although Garotte is less ideal than Rupture due to it's frequency of ticks, if in a situation of using pre-pot it might be more optimal since you can get your various trinket procs/CD's/Shadow blades aligned and running sooner (e.g. Garotte > SnD > Burst CD's rather than an extra full energy Muti > Rupture before CD's) to get max use from the pre-pot. I believe it possibly doesnt matter as long as all your CD's/pre-pot are active for the full duration of SB but I wanted to confirm.

    Also wondering if something particularly crazy involving weaving a vanish into the opener would be beneficial although I suspect that's just going to result in energy capping unless you did it during SB which from what I've read is probably a no-no due to autoattack being disabled however briefly.

    As an aside, many thanks to everyone that has contributed to this invaluable thread.
    Last edited by Fuddy; 2013-05-06 at 08:21 AM.

  5. #205
    Could anyone do a quick check on a parse I took earlier in LFR? Haven't done any PVE since cata so just need a sanity check: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k...21/?s=34&e=298

    I'm clipping the last tick of Rupture to ensure there is never a gap between refreshes, I assume that is optimal? My Rupture uptime seemed good but not sure about Envenom, I see some parses where people are pushing 80% uptime, somewhat gear dependent I know but I wonder if I'm using anticipation wrong or something.

  6. #206
    Clip Rupture at <2sec, not at 2 sec. Nothing wrong with 72% uptime - it's both gear and encounter duration dependent.

    Send us a YouTube of you playing and we'll be able to say more.
    Last edited by Lachtobi; 2013-05-09 at 09:32 PM.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor
    Recruiting a lock/ele to wrap up our Garrosh progression and going into Warlords. PM me or visit our website for more information.

  7. #207
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    Some small questions here guys. Sorry if they’ve already been answered. Most from Assassination point of view with really low ILVL (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ombat/advanced – 476 fist weapon for Combat) doing NORMAL MODES, 10m.:

    1- Horridon = Worth to apply rupture on ALL small adds (with Marked for Death), to benefit from the energy gain when they die, or just keep it on big adds + horridon?

    2- Council = My guild stacks all the bosses and zerg Sul asap, ignoring Loa Spirits. Should I use the “AOE” rotation here? “A: 2-3 targets: 2x Muti > Rupture. Repeat this cycle on all targets while weaving Envenom to maintain SnD. FoK spam during Envenom.” Or would Combat + BF pull ahead?

    3- Megaera = Worth applying Rupture on another head (if they are close, ofc) to fish some energy?

    That’s it for now, tyty, sry for my bad english =)
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  8. #208
    Am I missing something Vital or did you not have Slice and Dice active for that entire fight?

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
    Am I missing something Vital or did you not have Slice and Dice active for that entire fight?
    I noticed that too, I assume it's a glitch, but I suppose it's also possible I just assumed it was up and never bothered checking!

    Still, if that is the only issue in the parse I'm fairly happy. And I'm aware that in a real raid situation you would use cooldowns differently on that boss, I expected someone would mention that.

  10. #210
    From the log:
    [15:24:28.201] Retronym gains Slice and Dice from Retronym
    [15:24:28.201] Retronym casts Slice and Dice
    This is roughly the start of the fight. An expiration is not found. Logging was likely disrupted before the buff fell off.

    Auto swings per second: ((141+ 91+1+ 91+ 79+7)+(17+4+1+1)+(16+2+1+ 2))/(4*60 + 24) = 1.7196969697
    Expected: (2/1.8)*1.1*(1+.3*.151)*1.1384*1.4 = 2.03617006756
    This assumes 13.84% haste (as the armory currently shows)

    Below expected, but high enough to that it could be an issue of uptime, swing resets, or probably most significantly, Rune or Re-Origination (15.1% uptime of no haste). It would be approximately 1.99 swings per second once we consider RoRO. Remember that being turned away from the boss might not seem like typical downtime, but it's lost white swings which are definitely a DPS loss equivalent to not being in range of the target at all.

    Slice and Dice was most likely up for the entire fight. The difference is too small.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Drugshock View Post
    Some small questions here guys. Sorry if they’ve already been answered. Most from Assassination point of view with really low ILVL (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ombat/advanced – 476 fist weapon for Combat) doing NORMAL MODES, 10m.:

    1- Horridon = Worth to apply rupture on ALL small adds (with Marked for Death), to benefit from the energy gain when they die, or just keep it on big adds + horridon?

    2- Council = My guild stacks all the bosses and zerg Sul asap, ignoring Loa Spirits. Should I use the “AOE” rotation here? “A: 2-3 targets: 2x Muti > Rupture. Repeat this cycle on all targets while weaving Envenom to maintain SnD. FoK spam during Envenom.” Or would Combat + BF pull ahead?

    3- Megaera = Worth applying Rupture on another head (if they are close, ofc) to fish some energy?

    That’s it for now, tyty, sry for my bad english =)
    Horridon I just keep rupture up on horridon and priority kill targets, the other adds I throw an fok on em and me all the other aoe deal with them.

    Council we run the 2 melee on sul ranged on empowered strat, but when the empowered add is near sul I throw a rupture on it to help the ranged out. Once sul is dead I keep ruptures up on all the rest.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Pathal View Post
    From the log:
    [15:24:28.201] Retronym gains Slice and Dice from Retronym
    [15:24:28.201] Retronym casts Slice and Dice
    This is roughly the start of the fight. An expiration is not found. Logging was likely disrupted before the buff fell off.

    Auto swings per second: ((141+ 91+1+ 91+ 79+7)+(17+4+1+1)+(16+2+1+ 2))/(4*60 + 24) = 1.7196969697
    Expected: (2/1.8)*1.1*(1+.3*.151)*1.1384*1.4 = 2.03617006756
    This assumes 13.84% haste (as the armory currently shows)

    Below expected, but high enough to that it could be an issue of uptime, swing resets, or probably most significantly, Rune or Re-Origination (15.1% uptime of no haste). It would be approximately 1.99 swings per second once we consider RoRO. Remember that being turned away from the boss might not seem like typical downtime, but it's lost white swings which are definitely a DPS loss equivalent to not being in range of the target at all.

    Slice and Dice was most likely up for the entire fight. The difference is too small.
    Nice calculations. I probably did end the logging before the buff ran out, and yes there was a point where I was slacking and didn't stay in melee range as the boss was moving, so that might account for the lost white swings. Also, 13.84% haste sounds like you may have taken it from my PvP set which might have thrown your numbers off.

  13. #213
    Another quick question about openers. At the moment, SC is showing the highest dps opener for me to be Garotte/Start of fight (dps difference is slight - Mutilate/Always is only 200 dps behind). The majority of the difference (however slight) is between using the opener Always vs Start of Fight only. I was of the impression using Mutilate with every vanish was roughly a 1% dps increase (from this thread) whereas for me its a dps loss (170 dps so trivial but that's not the point) at least according to SC.

    Is this purely just because of my current gear (ilvl 522/normal talisman&juju/no legendary meta) or am I missing something/misunderstanding on how SC uses these settings?

  14. #214
    For me, my opener is Mutilate > Rupture > Mut > SnD > Vend > SB > Standard Rotation. This opener is based off not getting a Dispatch proc. Truthfully, I just open with Mutilate for the chance of the sweet Dispatch. Getting that and hitting it when Vendetta hits can cause quite a big hit, especially if you get a crit. I guess you could say I do it because it feels right. Same with why I Vanish. ShC shows it as tiny DPS loss to Vanish for a free Mut, but when you get that Dispatch proc, man is it nice. I don't have any math to go with this, but I will defend the Mut vs Garrote opener with the way things work. Rupture is going to over ride Garrote. Opening with Mutilate gives at most gives you 4 CP, Dispatch proc, and double poison procs. At minimum, it just gives you 2 CP. Now, with the argument between Mut vs Ambush, the difference is so tiny that it doesn't really matter that much because most of the time you won't get every star to align to give you what you want. That is just what I think. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong or add to it if I am right.

  15. #215
    My raid group is fairly casual, so we are still working our way through normals (Tortos atm). Is it worthwhile to break the T14 4piece for the T15 2piece LFR and use 522s in the other spots?

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Frick View Post
    My raid group is fairly casual, so we are still working our way through normals (Tortos atm). Is it worthwhile to break the T14 4piece for the T15 2piece LFR and use 522s in the other spots?
    In the future this would really fit as a standalone question rather than an FAQ/deep discussion thread - but generally, "probably" is your answer, and more importantly: ask ShadowCraft or SimC - we can't bring up your character, see your DPS in combat, change your gear, reforge it, regem it, enchant it, and check the DPS again at a whim, but simulations and spreadsheets most certainly can.

  17. #217
    Added another one...

    Q: Is item X or set bonus Y and upgrade over Z?
    A: The answer is that it's individual. For any and all questions regarding item choices, gems, enchants and item upgrades, consult with the Holy Grail of rogue itemization: the Shadowcraft.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor
    Recruiting a lock/ele to wrap up our Garrosh progression and going into Warlords. PM me or visit our website for more information.

  18. #218
    Great thread! Lots of good information (admittedly I only read the first 2 pages so I might have read outdated information)

    I was hoping someone could evaluate my opener? This is the way I do it (no prepot)

    Mutilate out of Stealth > SnD > Mutilate > Rupture > Mut to 5+ CP > Pool and then Vendetta + SB > Envenom > Vanish Mut > Mut to 5+CP > Envenom > Prep into Vanish Mut > Mut 5CP+ > Refresh Rupture or continue standard rotation

    Of course pooling before Envenoms and abusing Anticipation to not overlap the Envenom buff.

    I've also thought about changing my first finisher depending on wether I get a Mutilate crit or not. If I get 3CP I'll start off with Rupture and if I get 2 I'll settle for SnD. But considering server and brain lag this might be a DPS loss considering the small window where you're trying to make a decision and sitting there autoattacking with neither Rupture or SnD up.

    Thoughts?

  19. #219
    Googles - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...8#post20969098

    I'm 99% sure the SnD is always going to be ahead in current gear levels because the deciding factor of rupture > SnD previously was the energy gain - partially negated first by ilevel increase and then, especially, by any shift toward haste, which further reduces the value of extra energy - before counting the 2p increasing envenom uptime.

  20. #220
    I was having a look at the latest mastery-haste thread, and thought I'd have a look at this again. Here are some pretty graphs:



    And here is a graph of the interesting area:



    That shows what happens when you reforge mastery to haste and vice-versa. The data comes from a 532 ilvl rogue with roughly equal amounts of haste and mastery (about 8,900 of each), one 543 RPPM trinket (Renataki's) and a legendary meta. The simulation was run with 25,000 iterations of a 450s patchwerk-like fight (the first graph was of changes from -5k to 5k in each stat with data points every 200 units; the second was of changes from -1k to +1k in each stat, with datapoints ever 50 units).

    For those who don't like graphs:

    • The data above pretty much agrees with the consensus of 'don't stack either haste of mastery' as mentioned numerous times in this thread.
    • The difference in stacking one or the other leads to a theoretical difference of 0.5% of dps for doing something as drastic as changing 5k of one stat into the other. I.e. the difference is so small that you choosing haste or mastery over the other is more a matter of opinion/whatever 'feels' better/whatever is better for a particular fight.

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