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  1. #261
    New entry on the OP:

    Q: Haste or mastery!?
    A: The general rule of thumb is this: with 1 RPPM trinket, mastery is slightly better; with 2 RPPM trinkets, haste is slightly better; with 2 RPPM trinkets and Legendary Meta gem, haste pulls considerably ahead. However, mileage may vary, so consult with Shadowcraft to be sure.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    New entry on the OP:

    Q: Haste or mastery!?
    A: The general rule of thumb is this: with 1 RPPM trinket, mastery is slightly better; with 2 RPPM trinkets, haste is slightly better; with 2 RPPM trinkets and Legendary Meta gem, haste pulls considerably ahead. However, mileage may vary, so consult with Shadowcraft to be sure.
    I'd expand to mention that that applies to patchwerk situations, and mastery will pull ahead again for multi-dotting and limited AoE, or time off-target, so for a "general" recommendation people should pick mastery if they don't frequently reforge and want a stable setup for all fights in ToT. I know that gets a little expansive, but I think it's probably better than explaining it again and again =)

  3. #263
    Epic! OneSent's Avatar
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    I've been curious about this bit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    A: Up to 1 sec of Envenom carries over to the next Envenom, so you can safely clip within this time frame. E.g. if you clip with 0.9 sec left, your next full Envenom will last 6.9 sec, and it won't be a DPS loss.
    Is it always optimal to clip Envenom at the 0.9 sec or less mark, even if you don't have to?

    In other words, does clipping Envenom at <1 sec yield better uptime or net more damage than letting it run it's full duration and fall off before reapplying? Or is there no difference between the two?

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by OneSent View Post
    I've been curious about this bit:

    Is it always optimal to clip Envenom at the 0.9 sec or less mark, even if you don't have to?

    In other words, does clipping Envenom at <1 sec yield better uptime or net more damage than letting it run it's full duration and fall off before reapplying? Or is there no difference between the two?
    No difference.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by OneSent View Post
    Is it always optimal to clip Envenom at the 0.9 sec or less mark, even if you don't have to?
    What makes sub-1 sec clipping optimal is that you don't risk landing any attacks in between Envenoms that could have benefited from the +15% poison buff. If you got low enough ms you can just as well clip at 0.5 sec or re-apply exactly at 0 sec.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  6. #266
    One thing I'm having trouble understanding is why shadow blades is used BEFORE vendetta in the starting rotation. This causes two problems in my eyes.

    First, it separates the cooldowns, when historically stacking cooldowns is more damage than keeping them separate (provided you don't lose a cooldown trying to just stack them, but given the option you always want to). So why are we using the shorter cooldown first? Second, related to the first, is that this then puts you in a position where if you're using your abilities as soon as they come off cooldown, they will be disjointed for the rest of the fight.

    Given that Vendetta is a solid % damage done, I can't see any reason to NOT use shadow blades during it, instead of wasting part of shadow blades, especially since they can be combined into one macro and used right away.

  7. #267
    To refresh from page 10:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Long duration (450 +/-20%)
    Mut > SnD > Shadow Blades> Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields:199,079 dps (error: 134dps)
    Distribution - Max: 226,300, min: 176,284 - Range: 50,016

    Mut > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Shadow Blades (*)> Standard Rotation
    Yields: 199,265 dps (error: 134dps)
    Distribution - Max: 226,455 min: 180,126 - Range: 46,329

    Mut > Shadow Blades> Rupture > Mut > SnD> Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields: 198,805 dps (error: 134dps)
    Distribution - Max: 230,443, min: 178,454 - Range: 51,989


    (*) - It is marginally better to wait for the GCD to end before using Shadow Blades here
    You're looking at something like .5% variance in DPS based on opening sequence; if you want to hair down past that I'd recommend simming yourself with each potential opener. The theorized ideal here doesn't quite match the OP, but they're not far apart, either (closer to .1%).

    As for de-syncing SB; delay it 3 seconds later on in the fight and it'll line up with your third vendetta (assuming patchwerk); nothing says you can't hold off for 3s on using it to make it line up =)

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    You're looking at something like .5% variance in DPS based on opening sequence; if you want to hair down past that I'd recommend simming yourself with each potential opener. The theorized ideal here doesn't quite match the OP, but they're not far apart, either (closer to .1%).

    As for de-syncing SB; delay it 3 seconds later on in the fight and it'll line up with your third vendetta (assuming patchwerk); nothing says you can't hold off for 3s on using it to make it line up =)
    I guess the main thing I'm not understanding is that they are off-GCD cooldowns; why not macro them? Even if I am wrong about that, why not vendetta first? I was thinking I was missing some master-plan stuff here, but you're saying that's just how it was picked for the sim?

    Sorry if I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by zurm View Post
    I guess the main thing I'm not understanding is that they are off-GCD cooldowns; why not macro them? Even if I am wrong about that, why not vendetta first? I was thinking I was missing some master-plan stuff here, but you're saying that's just how it was picked for the sim?

    Sorry if I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.
    Vendetta is not off GCD. Only SB is. The reason you don't macro them together is it would waste a global of SB: Vendetta+SB > global > rotation vs. Vendetta > global > SB+rotation.

    I open Amb > SnD > Mut > Rupt > Vendetta > global > SB+rotation. I haven't personally run opener sims, but ShC tells me Amb is better than Mut in my gear and the rest was found to be optimal by a very small margin. Those sims might be out of date though (they were ran last tier, right?), so someone should probably run another series of opener sims.

    Also, the opener almost doesn't matter. Running those sims again might just be a waste of time.

    If you're having trouble with your DPS or just looking for places to improve, the opener is the last place you should look.

  10. #270
    I was using similar opener with S&D than rupture but when i tried other way around i got better results, in opener that is and higher burst dmg and i open muti>rupture>muti/dispatch>s&d(w/e combo points i have ofc)>macro>normal rotation.
    Dunno why and i'm far from theorycrafter but this opening gives me better results so i stick with it for now

  11. #271
    sorry if this has been mentioned before but is tricks of the trade worth using outside of opener?

  12. #272
    Mechagnome -Raer-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JIMM- View Post
    sorry if this has been mentioned before but is tricks of the trade worth using outside of opener?
    It's a 2-3% DPS increase for your TARGET if used on CD, while a minor loss for yourself. If you time it with someone else's cooldowns, it arguably becomes more or less valuable dependent on the targets skill and what their cooldowns do for them.
    Last edited by -Raer-; 2013-07-28 at 04:04 PM.

  13. #273
    It's really good for situations that require burst as well, like Spirits on Council, Ice Walls on Durumu, or Orbs on Ra-den.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    It's really good for situations that require burst as well, like Spirits on Council, Ice Walls on Durumu, or Orbs on Ra-den.
    For 25s, Tricks a demo lock for ball lightning on LS as well; 3 locks pulling ~40% of the damage on them isn't a problem if they know what they're doing and have tricks. /AoEBurstEnvy

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    To refresh from page 10:



    You're looking at something like .5% variance in DPS based on opening sequence; if you want to hair down past that I'd recommend simming yourself with each potential opener. The theorized ideal here doesn't quite match the OP, but they're not far apart, either (closer to .1%).

    As for de-syncing SB; delay it 3 seconds later on in the fight and it'll line up with your third vendetta (assuming patchwerk); nothing says you can't hold off for 3s on using it to make it line up =)

    I think the second option in that line is both more intuitive and nicer. I'm the only armor debuff, so I normally work that in (and as such I often rupture before slice). Back when we had a warrior I would make sure that the expose landed in the second global (aka before the warrior burst), but without that I do not.

    Given how long vendetta lasts (even unglyphed) and how short of a time blades is active for, I definitely want blades active during vendetta fully. I'm not surprised it sims that way.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by JIMM- View Post
    sorry if this has been mentioned before but is tricks of the trade worth using outside of opener?
    I have folks in my raid call for it when they're about to go nuts, If two call for it, I give it to the one I like more.

  17. #277
    Wondering if the "perfect" opener rotation changes with renatakis? it does with feather for fury warriors. maybe you want to delay sb for few secs?

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by hYrsch View Post
    Wondering if the "perfect" opener rotation changes with renatakis? it does with feather for fury warriors. maybe you want to delay sb for few secs?
    I'm not sure. This seems likely.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by hYrsch View Post
    Wondering if the "perfect" opener rotation changes with renatakis? it does with feather for fury warriors. maybe you want to delay sb for few secs?
    It would make sense. Assuming Rentaki's will proc on the pull (20s duration), you can put up Vendetta normally (30s duration; usually up 4s in) and delay SB (12s duration; usually up 5s in) for the last 12s of Rentaki's, and both of which will still fit inside of Vendetta. So, you would just be delaying SB for an extra 3s.

    However, there's no way this will have as large an impact on rogues as it does on warriors. They delay because they have a GIANT hit (Dragon's Roar lined up with everything else at 10 stacks) that scales greatly with the extra str. Assassination doesn't have any giant hits.

  20. #280
    so, this is me.

    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/gorefiend/khetagurov/advanced (ugh not allowed to post links)

    as you can see, i'm currently running two heroic tf iron qon's boot knives. today i picked up a 535 megaera's poisoned fang. it's the opinion of at least one other rogue in my guild that the un-tf fang is a better OH than the tf boot knife. i am aware that a lot of sims, including shadowcraft, rate haste above mastery, expecially with my trinkets, but from my personal experience, mastery seems to outperform it. the rogue inguild is also of that opinion, saying that beyond about 540 ilvl and about 32% haste mastery is quite a bit better.

    so, i'm somewhat unsure as to what to do. upgrade the fang and use it over the higher ilvl boot knife, or just disregard it and keep what i have?

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