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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Khetagurov View Post
    so, this is me.

    us.battle.net/wow/en/character/gorefiend/khetagurov/advanced (ugh not allowed to post links)

    as you can see, i'm currently running two heroic tf iron qon's boot knives. today i picked up a 535 megaera's poisoned fang. it's the opinion of at least one other rogue in my guild that the un-tf fang is a better OH than the tf boot knife. i am aware that a lot of sims, including shadowcraft, rate haste above mastery, expecially with my trinkets, but from my personal experience, mastery seems to outperform it. the rogue inguild is also of that opinion, saying that beyond about 540 ilvl and about 32% haste mastery is quite a bit better.

    so, i'm somewhat unsure as to what to do. upgrade the fang and use it over the higher ilvl boot knife, or just disregard it and keep what i have?
    ShadowCraft.

    It's a 1.5k DPS loss, mostly due to weapon damage. Changing 612 haste to 548 mastery doesn't come anywhere near to making that up (in fact, that secondary trade is probably a loss in a vacuum even if you value mastery over haste).

    Also, this made me sad:
    Quote Originally Posted by Khetagurov View Post
    expecially

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    ShadowCraft.

    It's a 1.5k DPS loss, mostly due to weapon damage. Changing 612 haste to 548 mastery doesn't come anywhere near to making that up (in fact, that secondary trade is probably a loss in a vacuum even if you value mastery over haste).
    like i said, i did run it through SC, and i would give it the benefit of the doubt, but i figured i'd ask for a second (or third) opinion regardless. thanks for the prompt reply.


    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Khetagurov View Post
    expecially
    who loves typos? i do!

  3. #283
    Let's try to keep personal inquiries out of this thread as they rarely benefit others.

    You're aware of the dilemma yourself: you're trading consistency (mastery) for a theoretical DPS gain (haste). The consensus among those I talk to is that mastery is the way to go - you're just too dependent on trinket procs, and the moment you don't have the raid wait 3 min until next pull, RPPM proc modifier won't go on and you'll severely gimp yourself. In your case, however, the gain in secondary stats are far outweighed by the loss in weapon DPS which directly affects Mutilate damage etc.

    Stick to IQ daggers and reforge mastery.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  4. #284
    Stood in the Fire intrinsc's Avatar
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    I just want to thank Lachtobi for helping me with quite a few questions last night. You're awesome!

  5. #285
    Q: Envenom clipping?
    A: Only clip if you're at 7 CPs (presuming Anticipation) or 85+ energy.
    Hey, why 7, not 8?
    At 7 CPs we have no risk to loose CP (if SB is not up).
    Q: Why is no one using Garrote?
    A: Garrote and Rupture both apply Venomous Wounds, but they don't stack, and Rupture ticks every 2 seconds compared to Garrote's 3 seconds, giving you less energy over time. Mutilate and Ambush - the two alternative stealth openers - both add two combo points, and hit harder. [1]
    True, but for e.g. at twins, from the start, we have about 2 seconds, until Suen dissappear. Its possible to use Garrote and SnD. And if deadly poison procs, we have obv. dps increase
    Last edited by rogue7777; 2013-08-12 at 09:44 PM.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue7777 View Post
    Hey, why 7, not 8?
    At 7 CPs we have no risk to loose CP (if SB is not up).

    True, but for e.g. at twins, from the start, we have about 2 seconds, until Suen dissappear. Its possible to use Garrote and SnD. And if deadly poison procs, we have obv. dps increase
    First part: a critical mut produces 3 CP. 8->11

    second part: this isn't an encounter specific guide, but a discussion of how the mechanics of assassination usually work. That said, Mut-Rupture has a higher application rate of DP on Suen than Garrote->SnD, so...

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    First part: a critical mut produces 3 CP. 8->11
    Thats why we have to clip envenom at 8 CPs, not at 7.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue7777 View Post
    Thats why we have to clip envenom at 8 CPs, not at 7.
    Oh hey, reading context properly. Yeah, I see what you're getting at now. That said, the only time you'd be concerned about clipping envenom (in my experience?) because of CP gen would be under SB. Might be different for people with higher haste values...?

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue7777 View Post
    Hey, why 7, not 8?
    At 7 CPs we have no risk to loose CP (if SB is not up).
    Outside of SB you're right. The number 7 was chosen to make the rule of thumb work with or without.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  10. #290
    Question, is there any reason Shadowcraft would be recommending I gem Haste? My gearscore is kinda low (512), I don't have the legendary meta, nor do I have 2 RPPM trinkets I think, just Bad Juju (other is the rep one). I thought until you got the legendary meta and 2 rppm trinkets, it was straight Mastery? Or did I miss something over the last month or so?

  11. #291
    I've been playing the rogue for a few months now after playing another class previous 2 expansions. I've been reading up on it and all the ways to maximise dps.

    I would really appreciate some feedback from rogues who've been playing the class for longer than I have.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y...um/damageDone/

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../silain/simple

    Would appreciate any feedback. Thanks!

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by xezar View Post
    Question, is there any reason Shadowcraft would be recommending I gem Haste? My gearscore is kinda low (512), I don't have the legendary meta, nor do I have 2 RPPM trinkets I think, just Bad Juju (other is the rep one). I thought until you got the legendary meta and 2 rppm trinkets, it was straight Mastery? Or did I miss something over the last month or so?
    That's generally the case, but if you read the OP I deliberately said that mileage may vary. If you could link your profile we might be able to get a better idea. Beyond that, the EP of the two stats is simply close enough that your gear plays a part in which wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chancie View Post
    I've been playing the rogue for a few months now after playing another class previous 2 expansions. I've been reading up on it and all the ways to maximise dps.

    I would really appreciate some feedback from rogues who've been playing the class for longer than I have.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y...um/damageDone/

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../silain/simple

    Would appreciate any feedback. Thanks!
    There should be a disclaimer on the OP that this is not a "rate the rogue above you" thread (there should probably be a sticky for such thread), but a reference for and discussion about theory and best practices. However, to keep this constructive, some comments on your performance:

    • Your Rupture uptime ranges from 68-92%. It should be 99,5% on almost every fight. If you haven't already, I suggest making a WeakAura to track Rupture at the center of your screen and make sure you don't let it fall off, but clip it within the <2sec period.
    • Your Slice and Dice uptime on Horridon is 90% and you had to reapply it 3 times. It should really only be cast on pull and then never again - even if you were on orb duty you could have just landed a 1 CP Envenom to make sure it wouldn't drop off during channel.
    • I see no pre-pot or combat pot on Horridon or Megaera. It's a small thing but also a very easy thing to correct. Make sure your raid leader uses a pull countdown ("/dbm pull 10" or "/bwcb 10 Pulling!") and that your tanks respect, so you can always open with a pre-pot 1-2 sec before.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    • Your Rupture uptime ranges from 68-92%. It should be 99,5% on almost every fight. If you haven't already, I suggest making a WeakAura to track Rupture at the center of your screen and make sure you don't let it fall off, but clip it within the <2sec period.
    • Your Slice and Dice uptime on Horridon is 90% and you had to reapply it 3 times. It should really only be cast on pull and then never again - even if you were on orb duty you could have just landed a 1 CP Envenom to make sure it wouldn't drop off during channel.
    • I see no pre-pot or combat pot on Horridon or Megaera. It's a small thing but also a very easy thing to correct. Make sure your raid leader uses a pull countdown ("/dbm pull 10" or "/bwcb 10 Pulling!") and that your tanks respect, so you can always open with a pre-pot 1-2 sec before.
    Thank you for the feedback. I do have a WeakAura icon for my Rupture, but it just tracks the dot. Same with Slice and Dice. I'll add some other WA's that warn me when it gets low.

    Now a question on clipping envenom. Hypothetically let's say that Envenom has 4 seconds left and so does Rupture. I have 5 combo points. I could Mut again and rupture <2 seconds and reapply envenom when necessary. I will not have the Envenom buff for 3-5 seconds. In a second scenario with the same durations left on Envenom and Rupture, I use the 5 CP's and Envenom, clipping the buff, but then I'd have enough Combo Points to refresh Rupture at about 1 sec and have a longer uptime on my Envenom.

    This occurred to me in a raid last night. I can't do math to work out how this would impact my dps over the course of an entire fight. Mainly I wanted to keep Envenom up for as long as possible.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Chancie View Post
    Thank you for the feedback. I do have a WeakAura icon for my Rupture, but it just tracks the dot. Same with Slice and Dice. I'll add some other WA's that warn me when it gets low.

    Now a question on clipping envenom. Hypothetically let's say that Envenom has 4 seconds left and so does Rupture. I have 5 combo points. I could Mut again and rupture <2 seconds and reapply envenom when necessary. I will not have the Envenom buff for 3-5 seconds. In a second scenario with the same durations left on Envenom and Rupture, I use the 5 CP's and Envenom, clipping the buff, but then I'd have enough Combo Points to refresh Rupture at about 1 sec and have a longer uptime on my Envenom.

    This occurred to me in a raid last night. I can't do math to work out how this would impact my dps over the course of an entire fight. Mainly I wanted to keep Envenom up for as long as possible.
    I'd just tick the Cooldown box for that aura, so you can simply see when the <2sec mark is reached.

    The scenario you describe is actually in the OP: if your Rupture has <6 sec duration the best practice is to wait until it reaches the <2sec mark, then refresh - provided you can stay off energy cap and 10 CP in that time period. At your ilvl that won't be a problem.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  15. #295
    In large groups of enemies that won't die any time soon (like most of the bigger pulls in ToT) is it worth it to finish with Crimson Tempest once every 12 seconds, or is that not an Assassination finisher?

    It's just so tempting.

  16. #296
    Rupture rotation does way more damage due to Venomous Wounds. Keep rupture rolling on 3-4 targets (with 2pc T15, ruptures at 2-3 cp each are perfect).

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbtacks View Post
    In large groups of enemies that won't die any time soon (like most of the bigger pulls in ToT) is it worth it to finish with Crimson Tempest once every 12 seconds, or is that not an Assassination finisher?

    It's just so tempting.
    It's a decent question, and one I've been asking too. For me it only comes up when I've popped SB and have 4+ targets in range. The standard is to go for FoK spam keeping Envenom up on main target, but in that situation you have such an excess of CPs that you have to dump them on main target and clip Envenom. I've not done the math, but seeing that the gains of clipping Envenom are rather incremental, I've been weaving in CT instead. So it's something like Envenom > FoK > FoK > CT > FoK > FoK > Envenom > FoK > FoK.

    Experiment with it and let us know your findings.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  18. #298
    Actually you should be cycling through targets to put ruptures up and only use envenom to refresh snd/if you have extra cps.
    Fluorescent - Fluo - currently retired, playing other stuff

    i5-4670k @ 4.5 / Thermalright Silver Arrow Extreme / Gigabyte Z87X-D3H / 8GB DDR3-1600 RAM / Gigabyte GTX 760

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Actually you should be cycling through targets to put ruptures up and only use envenom to refresh snd/if you have extra cps.
    True with <=X targets. Decider is X.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    True with <=X targets. Decider is X.
    Is it? Rupture is worth getting another 2+ FoK out.

    2 FoK = 2 FoK hits, 2 poison proc chances, 2 CP.
    1 CT = 1 CT hit/dot, 1 poison proc chance.
    1 CT hit/dot ?? 2 FoK hits, 1 poison proc chance, 2 CP.

    I've got a hard time imagining that the feedback loop of energy -> FoK -> CP is going to do less damage than the miniscule addition of the CT DoT (unless I'm calculating the damage wrong). This should exist regardless of # of targets (unless you're overwriting ruptures).

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