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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Agreed. I was intending to do an FAQ section section but I kept putting it off ><

    Lach, if you ever get tired of updating the OP and need someone to keep it in shape, let me know, but you're welcome to do all the work =).
    Gotcha. I'll do my best to keep it updated and add new stuff. I'm mostly just the messenger though, as far as assassination goes.

    Ideally there should be an FAQ for combat as well - would you prefer if we try to make one big fat "Rogue Special Tactics FAQ" or split it into specs?

  2. #62
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    Why open with Ambush? Does Garrote no longer give you Venomous Wounds, which do good damage and return energy? Having that up will give you nice energy regen while you're getting up Rupture/SND.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    Why open with Ambush? Does Garrote no longer give you Venomous Wounds, which do good damage and return energy? Having that up will give you nice energy regen while you're getting up Rupture/SND.
    No, Garrote is bad and you should feel bad for using it.
    - Deals less damage than Ambush/Mutilate
    - Ticks slower than Rupture
    - Is shit
    - Only generates 1 combo point
    - Did I mention it was shit?

  4. #64
    Garrote and Rupture both apply Venomous Wounds, but they don't stack, and Rupture ticks every 2 seconds compared to Garrote's 3 seconds, giving you less energy over time. Mutilate and Ambush - the two alternative stealth openers - both add two combo points, and hit harder.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Gotcha. I'll do my best to keep it updated and add new stuff. I'm mostly just the messenger though, as far as assassination goes.

    Ideally there should be an FAQ for combat as well - would you prefer if we try to make one big fat "Rogue Special Tactics FAQ" or split it into specs?
    So long as we're sticking to deep mechanical discussions and not fight-specific guides including spec recommendations and why (like Ashvael's from DS), I don't think it really matters. I don't see a lot of "big questions" come up about combat, but that might be spec bias from most people playing assassination.

  6. #66
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    I've been working on one for subtlety, very slowly, because I'm fairly sure it is already competitive and once 5.2 rolls around, people will probably want to try it out since it's getting quite some love. So, watch this space?
    I am the lucid dream
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I've been working on one for subtlety, very slowly, because I'm fairly sure it is already competitive and once 5.2 rolls around, people will probably want to try it out since it's getting quite some love. So, watch this space?
    I dunno, I tried it last night (was waiting for my 4pc which I finally got monday... half our raid is on vanq and we were massively short on a couple slots). I got a couple of decent ranks in MSV but it was less than I would have done with assassination. Now I'm not full bis or anything, ilvl 499 I think atm, but I did reforge for it. So I wouldn't say its competitive right now (at least at my gear level). I do think theres a good chance the buff could make it competitive though.

    I saw Ahdehl has some of the highest (non chinese) sub parses in that zone, I wonder what he thinks about it with his gear level.

    On a side note, anyone else think its silly to put the chinese ranks in the same list when they are using gear that we don't have access to?
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-01-16 at 09:29 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    On a side note, anyone else think its silly to put the chinese ranks in the same list when they are using gear that we don't have access to?
    Yes. But beating them is extra cool.

  9. #69
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    @Sesshou yes it's an absolutely awful thing. It is awful.

    Back to Assassination - When Shadowblades is up, is it better to keep 100% uptime (or as near as) on Envenom rather than pool energy to ensure 2 mutilates? Due to the SB attacks that replace Auto Attack.

  10. #70
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    @Sesshou yes it's an absolutely awful thing. It is awful.

    Back to Assassination - When Shadowblades is up, is it better to keep 100% uptime (or as near as) on Envenom rather than pool energy to ensure 2 mutilates? Due to the SB attacks that replace Auto Attack.
    Interesting point, I'll begin running some sims.

    EDIT: no I won't, since I still don't have a sufficient model for pooling energy yet. Someone fancy some napkin maths?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I dunno, I tried it last night (was waiting for my 4pc which I finally got monday... half our raid is on vanq and we were massively short on a couple slots). I got a couple of decent ranks in MSV but it was less than I would have done with assassination. Now I'm not full bis or anything, ilvl 499 I think atm, but I did reforge for it. So I wouldn't say its competitive right now (at least at my gear level). I do think theres a good chance the buff could make it competitive though.

    I saw Ahdehl has some of the highest (non chinese) sub parses in that zone, I wonder what he thinks about it with his gear level.

    On a side note, anyone else think its silly to put the chinese ranks in the same list when they are using gear that we don't have access to?
    I have it around 5-6% behind assassination currently, with the straight 3.45% increase it's getting, reduced vanish CD (?), prep baseline, further scaling to consider and the fact our new set bonuses love subtlety I would not be surprised to see it equal or surpass assassination next tier.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-01-16 at 11:38 PM.
    I am the lucid dream
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  11. #71
    I'm still skeptical of how well Subt is being modeled right now. Once I get another week or two into farm, I'll start messing with Subt to see how it actually matches up. Early on, it was nowhere close.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    I'm still skeptical of how well Subt is being modeled right now. Once I get another week or two into farm, I'll start messing with Subt to see how it actually matches up. Early on, it was nowhere close.
    Those early estimated were obviously garbage, at least the simc ones posted everywhere. The numbers the first week of raids proved them incredibly wrong. I don't think shadowcraft had its numbers out for sub then. I wasn't talking about modeling, and I dunno if squirl was either. I think 5-6% behind was fairly accurate based on my parses last night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I have it around 5-6% behind assassination currently, with the straight 3.45% increase it's getting, reduced vanish CD (?), prep baseline, further scaling to consider and the fact our new set bonuses love subtlety I would not be surprised to see it equal or surpass assassination next tier.
    Yeah I can see those set bonuses making a decent difference. The early estimated ep's for the 2pc are garbage for combat, low for assassination, and somewhat decent for sub. Haven't seen estimated ep for the 4pc but it does to me look like it will favor sub as well.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    I'm still skeptical of how well Subt is being modeled right now. Once I get another week or two into farm, I'll start messing with Subt to see how it actually matches up. Early on, it was nowhere close.
    I really don't think the model's been keeping up, but Ahdehl reported sub coming closer and closer as ilevels increase, coming up really close as he slowly approached BiS (posting some time back). Why it shows as high damage at lower ilevels in SimC, I'm not sure.

    As gear increases, we'll have a chance to see scaling in practice, and those set bonuses as Ryme points out, may very well help it catch up. We'll see.

  14. #74
    When is the best time to use your second (I say second assuming prepotting) potion? If you're at minus 35% on the boss and still have time left on the cooldowns for vendetta and shadowblades yet heroism/bloodlust is popped, should you pot for the heroism or wait until you can get either vendetta, shadowblades, or vendetta and shadowblades?

  15. #75
    Shadow Blades + Vendetta is much bigger burst than Heroism, so the second pot should be used there. It also aligns well witrh a full rupture before cooldowns, where you get almost 25 seconds of pure burst.

  16. #76
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    It's obviously best to line both lust and cds together, however, if you can only do one or the other it's a dps increase of around 500 dps (over the course of a long fight) to use both the pot when you can line up both vendetta and shadow blades.

    If you cannot line them both up, using it with just Vendetta is a 250 dps increase and using it with just shadow blades is a 100 dps (feels wrong, still looking at the sim) increase.

    These results are taken irrespective of where your SnD and/or rupture durations are at.
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by o03o View Post
    Is Garrote really that bad of an opener that it doesn't even get mentioned anywhere?
    I get that Ambush gives us two CP instead of just one, but Garrote benefits from VW and using it doesn't let me feel energy starved at the beginning of a fight. Ambush feels just clunky to me compared to Garrote.
    I don't think anyone answered this, so here you go.

    Garrote sucks because a) it does poor damage and b) because it ticks every 3 seconds rather than every 2 seconds like rupture.

    Optimal rotation will have you rupturing asap even using Garrote, so its a dps loss over a hard hitting Ambush.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 10:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    As gear increases, we'll have a chance to see scaling in practice, and those set bonuses as Ryme points out, may very well help it catch up. We'll see.
    I have a feeling that Sub's burst will be pretty insane with that 4 set bonus. The 2 sec will also help a bit with sustained damage.

  18. #78
    In reference to the redirected discussion from a thread on mutilates under envenoms:

    All of the pertinent information was brought up (maximizing usage of ALL mutilates under envenoms, with maximum envenom uptime) except~ if you have a proc (agi, mastery, crit, to a lesser extent haste), try to get more of your mutilates FRONT-loaded, even if you pool lower than you're used to, but assuming you still get 2 mutilates off before envenom drops, and if you have a proc coming off CD in 5-10 seconds, try to pool as much as possible to have envenom running THROUGH as much of that proc as possible. This is primarily "last stage" theory for assassination, which is a little disappointing, but until you're really in the groove this takes some paying attention to.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    I don't think anyone answered this, so here you go.

    Garrote sucks because a) it does poor damage and b) because it ticks every 3 seconds rather than every 2 seconds like rupture.

    Optimal rotation will have you rupturing asap even using Garrote, so its a dps loss over a hard hitting Ambush.[COLOR="red"]
    There was a ton of debating on this early on in the expansion, but what it boils down to with ambush doing a large amount more damage, and generating one combo point, and garotte potentially giving (75% chance) one tick of VW (10 energy gained) before rupture would replace it.

    If you had an attack that had a 75% chance of costing 10 energy (25% chance of being free), generated one combo point, and did ~65,000 damage. would you use it?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by eijin View Post
    There was a ton of debating on this early on in the expansion, but what it boils down to with ambush doing a large amount more damage, and generating one combo point, and garotte potentially giving (75% chance) one tick of VW (10 energy gained) before rupture would replace it.

    If you had an attack that had a 75% chance of costing 10 energy (25% chance of being free), generated one combo point, and did ~65,000 damage. would you use it?
    Without the stealth requirement sure, but in terms of consuming SF, when I've also got Ambush which generates 2 CP instead... I'm not seeing the competition. The idea that garrote coming ahead came from the idea that applying a bleed to have VW ticking as early as possible with SnD up was "superior," but this was easily disproved when modeling suggested garrote be immediately supplanted by rupture, rather than letting it tick out.

    Note: with SF up, Garrote at the opening of the fight (as 75%) is "free" because you'll re-cap energy before the next GCD. By comparison, Ambush will cost 5 energy (-1 per EPS). I don't have the math handy for this portion, but I'm pretty sure it still hits harder, so you're spending less than 5 energy for 1 CP and some damage, by comparison.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-01-23 at 11:21 PM.

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