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  1. #141
    How exactly does subterfuge give you the most damage? Ambush is probably not better than mutilate if you no longer ignore the cost difference, and if it is, it is a very marginal gain. Your double ambush from subterfuge is roughly equal at best with not taking a t1 talent and opening with mut mut. Shadow focus gives you a nearly free opener.

  2. #142
    Not to mention that even after the opener shadow focus can be very helpful in a few situations. Low on energy, rupture is about to expire and you only have three CP's, vanish/muti for a full 5 cp rupture. I try to save vanishes/prep vanishes for vendetta as well. Lower energy cost muti's means more muti's means more poison procs during envenom. Subterfuge is a fun little talent but I don't feel it has much of a place in PVE.

  3. #143
    I'm going to try to necro the Shurikan Toss discussion as it applies to Assassination PVE here. Please, pleeeeaaaase do no post sub pvp ST discussions on this thread.

    After my experiences with using Shurikan Toss on Tortos I did a small bit of testing on a training dummy. I did 5 X 10 minute intervals of both my regular rotation with anticipation and then using Shurikan toss as my cp builder and running back and forth to refresh rupture and envenom. I was only seeing an average loss of 2K dps. I did both tests WITHOUT using SB or Vendetta. I was also attacking the front of the training dummy. I would like to do more testing using different expertise value's and including cooldowns. If we ever see a fight that greatly benefits ranged, ST may be an option for us. Either way, its fun to test and use.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    I'm going to try to necro the Shurikan Toss discussion as it applies to Assassination PVE here. Please, pleeeeaaaase do no post sub pvp ST discussions on this thread.

    After my experiences with using Shurikan Toss on Tortos I did a small bit of testing on a training dummy. I did 5 X 10 minute intervals of both my regular rotation with anticipation and then using Shurikan toss as my cp builder and running back and forth to refresh rupture and envenom. I was only seeing an average loss of 2K dps. I did both tests WITHOUT using SB or Vendetta. I was also attacking the front of the training dummy. I would like to do more testing using different expertise value's and including cooldowns. If we ever see a fight that greatly benefits ranged, ST may be an option for us. Either way, its fun to test and use.
    ST and ST autoattacks can't be parried to my knowledge, so position doesn't really matter. 7.5% expertise covers dodge no matter which side you're hitting.

    Dispatch, Vendetta, SB, Heroism, and raid buffs will surely offset the damage by more than 2k, but it would be interesting to see how it actually compares in PvE. However, I feel a more a accurate representation of how ST would actually be used (if it's ever viable) is never running in for Rupture/Envenom and instead using DT; if you could get in melee range, why would you use it?

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    ST and ST autoattacks can't be parried to my knowledge, so position doesn't really matter. 7.5% expertise covers dodge no matter which side you're hitting.

    Dispatch, Vendetta, SB, Heroism, and raid buffs will surely offset the damage by more than 2k, but it would be interesting to see how it actually compares in PvE. However, I feel a more a accurate representation of how ST would actually be used (if it's ever viable) is never running in for Rupture/Envenom and instead using DT; if you could get in melee range, why would you use it?
    Agreed; the window for being "out of melee" as an advantage disappears if, every 10 seconds, you need to run into melee to use a finisher. It remains true that the only real options are being in melee, or eating the damage loss to being at range. ST was designed such that ranged DPS per auto-attack would be similar to melee, but that you'd have fewer options for cooldown and finisher use. The design is fine in this context.

    For fights where ranged are strongly preferred, rogues are still a good choice. Feint and cloak make anti-melee abilities far less dangerous to us.

  6. #146
    yeah, the only reason I mentioned positioning was to illustrate that the numbers I recieved from standard melee testing were lower than they should be which would increase the dps gap between Melee and ST.

    I think of the three specs, Assas would really be the only ones to effectively use ST as a PVE ability due to poison procs. I highly doubt it will EVER be optimal to use it, but I'm going to personally continue to ST the whirl turtles on Tortos until our ranged can get thier stuff together.

    One thing I forgot to test and maybe someone here has an answer to this, does your first shurikan continue applying melee auto-attacks and poisons if you switch targets and shurikan something else? Could you feasably tab target and get 7-8 shurikans spinning on seperate targets?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    One thing I forgot to test and maybe someone here has an answer to this, does your first shurikan continue applying melee auto-attacks and poisons if you switch targets and shurikan something else? Could you feasably tab target and get 7-8 shurikans spinning on seperate targets?
    I'm 100% certain without checking that it does NOT work this way. That would be a savage DPS gain; it should turn your auto-attacks into "ranged" attacks, not mirror each opportunity to attack onto your ST target. If that did happen, ST rogues would be dominating in PvP and PvE alike with no real competition, anytime they could leave melee.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    I'm 100% certain without checking that it does NOT work this way. That would be a savage DPS gain; it should turn your auto-attacks into "ranged" attacks, not mirror each opportunity to attack onto your ST target. If that did happen, ST rogues would be dominating in PvP and PvE alike with no real competition, anytime they could leave melee.
    And my nefarious plans are foiled again! Okay, I'm over my shurikan toss kick. Now on to mathing out if using a landshark on the bats before going into my aoe rotation is a dps gain......

  9. #149
    Just reached Jin'rokh heroic, and seeing how Conductive Waters have a huge impact on DPS, I've been contemplating a bit about how to best use cooldowns/procs. I'm not sure this has broad appeal, but if it does, here are my findings:

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2621975/jinrokh_dps.png

    Couple of things worth noting. Firstly, this is pretty min/max stuff that requires a fair amount of attention as you play - don't try this unless you feel very solid about your overall rotation and mechanics in general. Secondly, I'm using the (perhaps less known) trick of re-equipping trinkets at certain times prior to pull in order to put them on their ICD - in the above example, I'm equipping Relic of Xuen at -35sec and Vicious Talisman of the Shado-pan Assault at -45 sec. It's just a nice little detail to maximize Conductive Waters uptime.

    If you want to fool around with it yourself, and get your own trinkets in there, here's the spreadsheet: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2621975/jinrokh_dps.xlsx
    Last edited by Lachtobi; 2013-04-10 at 06:13 AM.

  10. #150
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Nice work Lachtobi, It's certainly a fun fight for Rogues and gives us a chance to really min max with small stuff like this (imo) - Let us know how you get on.
    Last time I did Jin Rok HC I ranked 60th on WoL but I do have 528 x 2 and 4 set

  11. #151
    Just got back to the game haven't played since T11. What is the deal with clipping Rupture? On Simcraft it says:

    Code:
    actions+=/rupture,if=ticks_remain<2|(combo_points=5&ticks_remain<3)

    Rupture ticks every 2 seconds so does that mean if you get 5 cps you should refresh Rupture with 3.9 seconds left?

  12. #152
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    That is indeed what simulationcraft says, I briefly looked into it a while ago but came to no solid conclusion as to why. But simulated out, if you have 5 combo points, it's worth clipping that extra second of rupture to get a fresh and full duration one up.
    I am the lucid dream
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  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    That is indeed what simulationcraft says, I briefly looked into it a while ago but came to no solid conclusion as to why. But simulated out, if you have 5 combo points, it's worth clipping that extra second of rupture to get a fresh and full duration one up.
    Thanks for the fast reply

    Also, there seems to be a slight contradiction or ambiguity between this guide and EJ, where they say:

    With Anticipation: Cast finishers with 5 CP. If at 5CP, and with a Blindside proc, cast Dispatch anyways. Maintain 100% Rupture uptime.
    Here it says:

    A: If at 1-4 CP, use Blindside proc right away. If at 5+ CP and no Envenom up, Envenom then Blindside.
    Is the special case just omitted from EJ?

  14. #154
    I'd say EJ just hasn't gone that far into the nitty gritty details. The reason you want to use Blindside right away is so that you don't lose out on the 20% chance that the next Mutilate overwrites the proc. I can't think of a reason you'd want to Dispatch at 5CP without Envenom up.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    That is indeed what simulationcraft says, I briefly looked into it a while ago but came to no solid conclusion as to why. But simulated out, if you have 5 combo points, it's worth clipping that extra second of rupture to get a fresh and full duration one up.
    Shouldn't you be using Rupture with 5CP when Rupture has 2 or less seconds on it? Not 4

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Shouldn't you be using Rupture with 5CP when Rupture has 2 or less seconds on it? Not 4
    As far as I am aware, in reality the optimal method is to not clip rupture at all, refreshing it once the duration dips at or below 2 seconds is fine as the remainder is added on to the new rupture without a delay in ticks.

    However, according to simulationcraft, clipping 1 second of the duration to get a full new duration of the debuff is optimal. This may be due to a number of factors that simply do not occur easily in reality that get modelled in simulation.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-04-10 at 05:26 PM. Reason: Wrote 3 seconds instead of two
    I am the lucid dream
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  17. #157
    It can't be optimal to clip Rupture in Assassination though, because the new dots management flexibility since 5.2, which translates into the 2 seconds clipping windows, only affects damages but doesn't change the number of ticks. The thing is, we don't care about Rupture's damages per se, we only want it to tick so Venomous Wounds can proc. Thus, we have to aim for the maximum duration possible; the strenght of the Rupture per se doesn't matter.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draigars View Post
    It can't be optimal to clip Rupture in Assassination though, because the new dots management flexibility since 5.2, which translates into the 2 seconds clipping windows, only affects damages but doesn't change the number of ticks. The thing is, we don't care about Rupture's damages per se, we only want it to tick so Venomous Wounds can proc. Thus, we have to aim for the maximum duration possible; the strenght of the Rupture per se doesn't matter.
    Precisely why I went off to investigate this a while back, I think it's even somewhere in this thread. I could not come to a solid conclusion as to why Simulationcraft does this, only that when you don't do it, you get a simmed dps loss.

    Perhaps the fault lies in my understanding of the syntax of "ticks remaining" though you would have intuitively thought that to mean the number of remaining ticks.
    I am the lucid dream
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  19. #159
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    Rupture ticks every 2 seconds. If you re-apply Rupture when there is 2 or less seconds left then it will add 28 seconds to the current amount of time that Rupture has left. For example, if you apply Rupture with one second left then the next Rupture will last 29 seconds instead of 28 (assuming you use 5CP). This is why it is 'optimal' (imo) to clip Rupture when it has less than 2.1 seconds left. (If you apply Rupture with 2 seconds left then the next Rupture will last 30s).

  20. #160
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    I'm trying to use shadowcraft for the first time, is it correct in telling me to reforge mastery to haste? I thought mastery was great for assasi. Is there some minimum haste i haven't reached or something?

    Here's my lil rogue with the shadowcraft optimalizations. I also cannot find enchants on there, is that factored in?
    Last edited by Hilde; 2013-04-12 at 12:17 AM.

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