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  1. #1
    The Patient StephenHolder's Avatar
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    Lets Help blizzard come up with ideas to Replace CND, Vendetta, and Leeching Poison

    Vendetta is a boring dps cooldown for assassination that gets stuck on one target and can not be redirected. Its a raw damage increase nothing more and has a 2 minute cooldown time.

    Cloak and dagger is a non viable mobility talent for anything but leveling. Any rogue with a head on his/her shoulders would use Step or Bos for Raiding/serious pvp

    Leeching poison is a pathetic healing poison that no one would ever pick over Feint.

    Lets come up with ideas since blizzard seems to not care or unable to come up with their own ideas to replace these boring talents, abilities for rogues.

    I feel that Cheat death is lousy but could be tuned to be more effective than it is. If it had less of an internal cooldown before it would work again and healed you somewhat or put you into stealth it would be a viable option over feint.

    I detest spamming feint.


    Vendetta: My idea) Venomous Blade 25 Yard Range. 30 Second Cooldown. You throw a blade at your opponent coated in a lethal toxin that slows their attack and casting speed as well as movement speed by 50% for X seconds. In addition this attack will always crit and deal X amount of Poison Damage over time for X seconds. Tuned so that you deal less damage than you would than with vendetta but it does more than dps and is usable more frequently. The dot applied would have to be more lethal than deadly poison or rupture.

    Cloak and Dagger:My Idea)Sure Footing Edited. Active ability with a cooldown time (X?) Replaces Sprint Frees you from Roots and prevents you from being rooted by the same effect within a certain window of time.

    Leeching Poison:My Idea)Lifestealing Poison A new Poison that counts as a non lethal poison but leeches health from enemies and transfers that health to you. The effect is increased to a point by attack power.(mastery for assassination because combat and sub get increased attack power and Muti does not)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Im not asking you to like my ideas, if you dont come up with you own;discuss
    Last edited by StephenHolder; 2014-08-07 at 09:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Your Vendetta idea won't work because they are trying to disarm CC's in general across the board. They won't be likely to add another one.
    The same problem affects your idea for the cloak and dagger replacement, as after CC has been nerfed they aren't going to want to add more immunities.
    Your leeching poison replacement has a damage component, which causes issues with the philosophy behind utility poisons. If it causes damage and other "utility" poisons do not, then everyone will use it over any other utility poison.

    I really don't think your ideas will fit with the philosophy of the development team. You should try coming up with alternatives that fit within the stated intent.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by oldschoolrogueplayer View Post
    Vendetta is a boring dps cooldown for assassination that gets stuck on one target and can not be redirected. Its a raw damage increase nothing more and has a 2 minute cooldown time.

    Cloak and dagger is a non viable mobility talent for anything but leveling. Any rogue with a head on his/her shoulders would use Step or Bos for Raiding/serious pvp

    Leeching poison is a pathetic healing poison that no one would ever pick over Feint.

    Lets come up with ideas since blizzard seems to not care or unable to come up with their own ideas to replace these boring talents, abilities for rogues.

    I feel that Cheat death is lousy but could be tuned to be more effective than it is. If it had less of an internal cooldown before it would work again and healed you somewhat or put you into stealth it would be a viable option over feint.

    I detest spamming feint.


    Vendetta: My idea) Venomous Blade 25 Yard Range. 30 Second Cooldown. You throw a blade at your opponent coated in a lethal toxin that slows their attack and casting speed as well as movement speed by 50% for X seconds. In addition this attack will always crit and deal X amount of Poison Damage over time for X seconds. Tuned so that you deal less damage than you would than with vendetta but it does more than dps and is usable more frequently. The dot applied would have to be more lethal than deadly poison or rupture.

    Cloak and Dagger:My Idea)Sure Footing Edited. Active ability with a cooldown time (X?) Replaces Sprint Frees you from Roots and prevents you from being rooted by the same effect within a certain window of time.

    Leeching Poison:My Idea)Lifestealing Poison A new Poison that counts as a non lethal poison but leeches health from enemies and transfers that health to you. The effect is increased to a point by attack power.(mastery for assassination because combat and sub get increased attack power and Muti does not)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Im not asking you to like my ideas, if you dont come up with you own;discuss
    Vendetta - You mark an enemy as a target of your terrible vengeance.
    Every time the target deals damage to a friendly unit within 40 yards, you instantly
    hurl a poison laced dagger at them, applying a necrotic poison. Necrotic poison
    deals X damage per second for 10 seconds, stacking up to 40 times.
    This effect cannot occur more than once every 0.5 seconds.
    Lasts 20 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.

    Cloak and Dagger- You slip through the shadows, instantly switching places with your target. The shadows cling to your target, slowing movement speed by X% for X seconds.

    Leeching Poison - Coats your weapon in a non-lethal poison that lasts for 1 hour. Your melee attacks have a 50% chance to poison the target for 12 sec, causing subsequent melee attacks to heal you for 15% of damage dealt. In addition, when you use fan of knives or eviscerate with blade flurry, you heal all friendly targets caught within range of the attack for X split evenly. This AoE effect never heals the rogue.
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  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire Kaitenx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Vendetta - You mark an enemy as a target of your terrible vengeance.
    Every time the target deals damage to a friendly unit within 40 yards, you instantly
    hurl a poison laced dagger at them, applying a necrotic poison. Necrotic poison
    deals X damage per second for 10 seconds, stacking up to 40 times.
    This effect cannot occur more than once every 0.5 seconds.
    Lasts 20 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.

    Cloak and Dagger- You slip through the shadows, instantly switching places with your target. The shadows cling to your target, slowing movement speed by X% for X seconds.

    Leeching Poison - Coats your weapon in a non-lethal poison that lasts for 1 hour. Your melee attacks have a 50% chance to poison the target for 12 sec, causing subsequent melee attacks to heal you for 15% of damage dealt. In addition, when you use fan of knives or eviscerate with blade flurry, you heal all friendly targets caught within range of the attack for X split evenly. This AoE effect never heals the rogue.
    I like your cloak and dagger and leeching poison idea. But I don't think making Vendetta as a dot really fits. It pretty much removes any burst option for assassination and just adds more ramp up time. Would be horrible for quickly switching target to burst etc.

    Perhaps:

    Vendetta - You mark a target to unleash your wrath on
    While you are in melee range your target feels your hatred causing your auto attacks to generate an extra attack and instantly apply both your poisons.
    Whenever you are more than 10 yards from of your target you will step through the shadows to them and attack with shadow strike. Shadow strike combines all of your possible poisons into their strongest single form causing x damage and applying each poisons effect for 5 seconds.
    Lasts 20 seconds. 2 minute cooldown

    Probably a bit to OP (I guess) but this could lead to deciding to stay in melee range the whole time or decide if its better to utilize shadow strike. Perhaps the x dmg from it would be the combine melee strike hits that you missed since your last?

  5. #5
    Poison spec needs more poison... Forget Vendetta, lets bring Shadow Blades back but better...

    Venomous Frenzy

    Coat your weapons in a deadly concoction causing your auto attacks to deal nature damage for x seconds, you generate an additional combo point for the duration. Mutilate and dispatch cast during Envenom increase the duration of Venomous Frenzy by y seconds for a maximum of z seconds.

    Again, bring back shadow blades it was a better cooldown. Also make this fit into the play style of Assassination a bit more, really doubling down on proper energy management to maximize the duration of the buff.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarzog View Post
    Venomous Frenzy

    Coat your weapons in a deadly concoction causing your auto attacks to deal nature damage for x seconds, you generate an additional combo point for the duration. Mutilate and dispatch cast during Envenom increase the duration of Venomous Frenzy by y seconds for a maximum of z seconds.
    I like this.

  7. #7
    The Patient StephenHolder's Avatar
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    The reason I always suggest vendetta have a non dps aspect is because Dance is so strong in pvp for its Utility and crowd control. I really want to be able to play another spec besides Sub without getting laughed at Pref Muti unless they nerf dance no one will play anything else and nerfing dance wont help the class. In fact dance is getting buffed with a longer duration.

  8. #8
    CnD- literally anything else. I propose making kidney, evis, and envenom teleport you behind your target, AND you gain 4 yards of range on these moves for each combo point you have. But you could tweak that into all manner of things, or just randomly assign clash, charge, whatever.
    Vendetta- Shadow Blades. Tune as needed.
    Leeching Poison- a talent that greatly boosts recuperate.

  9. #9
    My ideas for the Level 75 talent row:
    Make shadowstep a base spell.

    Replace the current talents with something like this:
    Talent idea 1:
    Your sprint is now passive, increases your movement speed by 20 % (stacks with fleet footed) and you cannot be brought below 100% movement speed.

    Talent idea 2:
    Your shadowstep now breaks roots.

    Talent idea 3:
    Your shadowstep has 2 charges.

    Talent idea 4:
    Shadowstep supresses any root/slow effects for 3 Seconds after use, does not remove them. (Frost nova is "ignored" during this and reapplied later)

    Talent idea 5:
    Reduces the cooldown of your sprint by x seconds everytime you consume 5 combo points.

    Just general ideas.

  10. #10
    I'd love to see something unique, something with a "rogueish" flavour. maybe something like:

    Evil Twin (instead of Cloak'n'Dagger):
    20 Energy; 45 secs CD; lasts 8 secs; 30y range
    You blur into the environment leaving behind an Evil Twin. The Twin starts rushing at your target at 200% run speed. The moment it catches up with your target, the twin tackles it, knocking your target down for 2 secs and rooting it for 5 secs. While you are in blurred state, you can use your Stealth-Abilities; attacking breaks blurred state. Casting Evil Twin clears you of all snares, slows and roots. The Twin is immune to damage, AoE, slows, snares and stuns, but can be rooted in place.

    this is just off the top of my head. numbers can (and probably should be adjusted, etc.). Blurred State should be just like unglyphed hunter's camouflage.


    instead of BoS they should just implement Hit'n'Run. although i didn't like it back when it was in beta testing, it would be much better und cooler than that super-boredom which is BoS.

    CD on ShS should go down to 18 secs.

  11. #11
    I see nothing inherently wrong with these things... they have their uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldschoolrogueplayer View Post
    Vendetta is a boring dps cooldown for assassination that gets stuck on one target and can not be redirected. Its a raw damage increase nothing more and has a 2 minute cooldown time.
    So you condemn Vendetta to be boring while at the same time stating that it's too complex to use because you have to make sure you pick the right target at the right time? That's contradictory, when you have to plan out its usage and can't simply spam it blindly for the maximum benefit the CD is hardly boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldschoolrogueplayer View Post
    Cloak and dagger is a non viable mobility talent for anything but leveling. Any rogue with a head on his/her shoulders would use Step or Bos for Raiding/serious pvp
    Cloak and Dagger is brutally effective when used as sub, you only have to know how to use it. Just because it's not an accepted main stream talent doesn't mean there are no uses; sometimes it's the most underrated things that strike home in an unexpected way.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldschoolrogueplayer View Post
    Leeching poison is a pathetic healing poison that no one would ever pick over Feint.
    I'd pick Leeching Poison over Feint anytime when soloing stuff that's likely to actually cause a bit of damage or lives pretty long. In raid settings you can use it to back your healers up a bit, like tanks that use their small def CDs regularly to go easy on heals rather than keeping every single CD for emergencies. Thing is, the rogue already has so many on-demand damage reduces that Feint often isn't actually required. Yes it can smooth out extraordinary spikes, but at the same time you wouldn't spam it for continuously incoming damage while still having to DPS a boss, this is where Leeching Poison shines.
    Last edited by The Kao; 2014-08-08 at 11:10 AM.
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  12. #12
    I agree with Vendetta at least, one of the dullest CDs left in the game.

    Preferably it should be replaced with something poison related as Assass is nominally about poisons.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Siggi View Post
    My ideas for the Level 75 talent row:
    Make shadowstep a base spell.

    Replace the current talents with something like this:
    Talent idea 1:
    Your sprint is now passive, increases your movement speed by 20 % (stacks with fleet footed) and you cannot be brought below 100% movement speed.

    Talent idea 2:
    Your shadowstep now breaks roots.

    Talent idea 3:
    Your shadowstep has 2 charges.

    Talent idea 4:
    Shadowstep supresses any root/slow effects for 3 Seconds after use, does not remove them. (Frost nova is "ignored" during this and reapplied later)

    Talent idea 5:
    Reduces the cooldown of your sprint by x seconds everytime you consume 5 combo points.

    Just general ideas.
    I like your ideas

  14. #14
    High Overlord
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    If they just made leeching poison heal from all damage dealt (poisons and bleeds included) I think it could become quite good with the healing philosophy in WoD. This would make it more balanced between the specs. After doing this it's just a matter of tuning the value of the heal. I feel like this should be the default talent, with the other two being more situational.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I agree with Vendetta at least, one of the dullest CDs left in the game.

    Preferably it should be replaced with something poison related as Assass is nominally about poisons.
    What about just getting it turn all damages to poison damage during its duration ? This would be a DPS burst as the armor of the target applies no more and our Mastery would apply on auto attack, Mutilate, Dispatch and Emvenom.

    Another possibility would be :

    Vandetta :
    CD 2 min, last 20 seconds
    Your auto attacks have 15% to trigger a free Dispatch.

  16. #16
    The Patient StephenHolder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kao View Post
    I see nothing inherently wrong with these things... they have their uses.


    So you condemn Vendetta to be boring while at the same time stating that it's too complex to use because you have to make sure you pick the right target at the right time? That's contradictory, when you have to plan out its usage and can't simply spam it blindly for the maximum benefit the CD is hardly boring.


    Cloak and Dagger is brutally effective when used as sub, you only have to know how to use it. Just because it's not an accepted main stream talent doesn't mean there are no uses; sometimes it's the most underrated things that strike home in an unexpected way.

    Just because you solo with CND and leeching doesnt mean they are viable for the end game I think I stated that. RAIDING / ARENA


    I'd pick Leeching Poison over Feint anytime when soloing stuff that's likely to actually cause a bit of damage or lives pretty long. In raid settings you can use it to back your healers up a bit, like tanks that use their small def CDs regularly to go easy on heals rather than keeping every single CD for emergencies. Thing is, the rogue already has so many on-demand damage reduces that Feint often isn't actually required. Yes it can smooth out extraordinary spikes, but at the same time you wouldn't spam it for continuously incoming damage while still having to DPS a boss, this is where Leeching Poison shines.
    Get real man no one uses CND to win games in Arena nor does anyone play Mutilate. Its Sub with BOS and Step vs hunter teams.. in one comp i might add RMD if you want to get anywhere. Vendetta isnt complex its just fucking retarded and gimp. Its not built for pvp whatsoever.

    Just because you solo with CND and leeching doesnt mean they are viable for the end game I think I stated that. RAIDING / ARENA

  17. #17
    Bloodsail Admiral Kae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithildine View Post
    What about just getting it turn all damages to poison damage during its duration ? This would be a DPS burst as the armor of the target applies no more and our Mastery would apply on auto attack, Mutilate, Dispatch and Emvenom.
    For a simple fix, why not just let Assassination keep Shadow Blades instead of Vendetta, and then change it to Poison Blades to fit the theme.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kae View Post
    For a simple fix, why not just let Assassination keep Shadow Blades instead of Vendetta, and then change it to Poison Blades to fit the theme.
    I'm actually a little surprised we want to keep the shadowstep tier at all. Just give us baseline shadowstep, let us bid a fond (and even loving) fairwell to BoS, and then C&D falls off as a whole new row of talents gets inserted. We'll miss BoS but I don't see them ever being able to balance it with shadowstep.

    Gonna agree that I'd like some kind of shadowblades, say, "Virulent Frenzy": basically, shadowblades with a longer duration.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Demeia View Post
    I'm actually a little surprised we want to keep the shadowstep tier at all. Just give us baseline shadowstep, let us bid a fond (and even loving) fairwell to BoS, and then C&D falls off as a whole new row of talents gets inserted. We'll miss BoS but I don't see them ever being able to balance it with shadowstep
    Agreed.

    My absolutely favorite solution though is to make Shadowstep baseline, replace Shadow Focus with Cloak & Dagger on the level 15 tier, and then make the level 60 tier all about buffing Shadowstep (like shorter CD, 2 charges, or breaks roots).

  20. #20
    Vandetta :
    CD 2 min, last 20 seconds
    Your auto attacks have 15% to trigger a free Dispatch.
    Super useful in execute range I like idea with tweaked Shadow Blades.

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