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  1. #41
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Tricks, prepot, stealth, shadowstep, mut, rupture, mut, snd, SB+Vendetta, mut to 5, envenom, rupture should be about to drop, vanish, mut, mut/blindside to 5, refresh rupture, go about normal.
    I choose to open with rupture over snd since I like to get the energy and damage from procs going right off the bat.

    4 targets, for me, depends on how long they will live. If they are short lived, small hp trash I just go normal rotation and tab 4cp rupture on 3 of them. If they are boss adds or something that wont die in like 20 seconds I go FoK and try to maintain 3 4cp ruptures. With FoK it's a bit harder to keep up the ruptures so I don't stress it too hard if I can't get a 4cp on one before the rest drop, I'll rupture at 2-3 if it means not letting me go without a rupture on at least one target. Even on single target, having a rupture up > getting the one I'm working on to 4-5 cp.

    I always open with mut, the potential of it far outshines the minor damage gain from ambush, at least for me. That and I feel like ambush is for other specs, we mutilate things.

    Request For Sticky! We need a thread like this here.

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  2. #42
    I would like to Sim this myself, but I'm not familiar with how you set up the sequences. If you have a chance Ryme, could you add some numbers to the following variations? Given T14H BiS:

    Ambush > Shadow Blades > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Ambush > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Mut > SnD > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Ambush > SnD > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation

  3. #43
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    Sorry it took a while, had to to remember how to set things up to be this specific

    Long duration (450 +/-20%)
    Ambush > Shadow Blades > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields:117,945 dps (error: 60dps)
    Distribution - Max: 131,387, min: 107,332

    Ambush > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Mut > SnD > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields: 117,709 dps (error: 60dps)
    Distribution - Max: 129,447, min: 108,239

    Ambush > SnD > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields: 117,895 dps (error: 60dps)
    Distribution - Max: 130,129, min: 107,863


    -----

    Short duration (100 +/-20%)
    Ambush > Shadow Blades > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields:142,889 dps (error: 225dps)
    Distribution - Max: 209,966, min: 117,742

    Ambush > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Mut > SnD > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields: 142,178 dps (error: 223dps)
    Distribution - Max: 194,289, min: 114,190

    Ambush > SnD > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields: 143,022 dps (error: 229dps)
    Distribution - Max: 208,719, min: 114,446

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 01:42 PM ----------

    Just noticed it seems the default action priority of simc for assassination does nothing to prevent envenom clipping, results may be skewed due to this. I'll try and run the sims again once I've changed some bits.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-01-15 at 12:57 PM.
    I am the lucid dream
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  4. #44
    Great work Ryme. Unsurprisingly, the opener doesn't mean much over the course of a fight - but for the sake of maximizing burst when it's most needed, I still think the discussion is relevant.

    Looking at the sim, it seems to me like 3rd rotation is the best. It's within margin of error and I can think of no reason that we should lead with SB - losing a second of SnD uptime as well as wasting the first second of SB not getting the extra CP both go against it. Until proven wrong, I'll go with:

    Ambush > SnD > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation

    Btw, how come max/min DPS is much higher for the short duration sim?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 02:54 PM ----------

    Envenom clipping it OK as long as there's <=1sec left; don't know if you can work that into the sim though?

  5. #45
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    The min/max section basically shows you how much of an effect RNG has on the rotation, max shows you what could happen if the stars allign, you get perfect procs, great crits and endless sandwiches made for you by your significant other. Min shows you what could happen if you got very bad procs, horrible crits and meteorites strike your house.

    Scary how much RNG can effect you, eh? It's much higher for the short term because the short term is modelling only your burst, in such a short window, RNG has much more chance to sway your dps. For example, if you sat at a target dummy for 10 weapon swings and then again for 100 swings, the odds of you getting 100% crit rate on the 10 swings is much higher than the second.

    ---

    As to envenom clipping, it's proving quite challenging, once I tell it to pool energy before envenom and to not clip itself more than a second, I lose around 1k dps. I'm pretty sure I'm simming it wrong and I think I know how, but it's going to prove to be a bit of a challenge to get correct pooling and clipping behaviour.
    I am the lucid dream
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  6. #46
    Try removing the pooling condition altogether. Energy pooling only makes sense sometimes; turning it into a set rule might do more harm than good for DPS.

  7. #47
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    Yeah, was my first attempt, caused further issues. Perhaps this is why they left it out from the original version.

    Oh, and as to your updated OP, it might be worth stating that the opener only holds with the 4 set bonus. Without that increased duration on SB, it might not be the best opener.
    I am the lucid dream
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Try removing the pooling condition altogether. Energy pooling only makes sense sometimes; turning it into a set rule might do more harm than good for DPS.
    Correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am), but shouldn't you always pool at least enough energy to garuntee at least two mutilates after an envenom?

  9. #49
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am), but shouldn't you always pool at least enough energy to garuntee at least two mutilates after an envenom?
    Yes, but that set value is never set to anything, making it a hard and heavy "always pool to x" will not do your dps any favours. I think there's a link to EJ on the OP that better explains this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Oh, and as to your updated OP, it might be worth stating that the opener only holds with the 4 set bonus. Without that increased duration on SB, it might not be the best opener.
    In fact it is not! Just done a quick sim, it looks like it could even be a loss to follow that opener without the 4set - going to lunch now though, might do more when I get home from work.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am), but shouldn't you always pool at least enough energy to garuntee at least two mutilates after an envenom?
    Not necessarily. It takes a long time to gather the necessary energy required for two Mutilates(110 to be precise). The Envenom buff is up for a decent amount of time. Pooling to a fair amount of energy to guarantee at least one Mutilate should generally suffice(70~ energy) the remaining energy for your second Mutilate should come to you as you delve into the Envenom buff itself.

    Plays out like follows:
    - Pool to 70~ energy
    - Envenom
    - Mutilate
    - Second Mutilate should be available by now

    Outright pooling to 110 could easily lead to energy capping, and therefore shouldn't be done.

    EDIT: Upon rereading your post, I realize this might've been what you were referring to... In which case, you are permitted to deem me a dick.
    Last edited by Incineration; 2013-01-15 at 02:53 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong (and I often am), but shouldn't you always pool at least enough energy to garuntee at least two mutilates after an envenom?
    That seems to be the conventional wisdom. However, with envenom carrying over you occasionally get up to 1sec more regen time to cast the second mutilate.

    I think regardless of how you approach this, it should be a rule of thumb to never go beyond 85 energy unless you're actively tracking Rupture dot ticks. Not done the math, but I imagine energy capping would be worse than potentially getting 3 mutilates in during Envenom.

  12. #52
    Yeah that's pretty much what I meant, pool enough energy so that you know that you will be able to fit two muty's in while the buff is up. Is it ever a good idea not too though? I've been operating under the assumption that I should be trying to pool enough energy to fit as many cp builders into the envenom buff as possible. This includes dispatch under 35%, I pool up enough energy so that I know that I'll be able to fit at least four dispatches into the envenom buff and any extra cp's generated is a bonus.

    Ah yes, and I do sometimes have a problem with energy capping while pooling if the boss gets moved and whatnot, I didn't take that under consideration.

  13. #53
    I would imagine it'd be worthwhile to Envenom immediately if your target is about to die. That way, you'd at least make use of your combo points instead of letting them go to waste, and maybe net yourself a few more poison procs as well. Alternatively, you could just Redirect and continue your usual rotation; but if Redirect is unavailable, or you only have that one target to dps, I'd say you should go for the last minute Envenom.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Q: What's the best opener as Assassination in 5.1?
    A: Ambush > SnD > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    [1,2]
    Is Garrote really that bad of an opener that it doesn't even get mentioned anywhere?
    I get that Ambush gives us two CP instead of just one, but Garrote benefits from VW and using it doesn't let me feel energy starved at the beginning of a fight. Ambush feels just clunky to me compared to Garrote.

    When I open it basically looks like this:
    Garrote > SnD > Vendetta > Shadow Blades > Mut > Mut or Dispatch if Blindside proccs > Envenom > Standard Rotation applying Rupture when Garrote has < 1sec left.

    I mean I trust you guys have figured the right stuff out and I'm not saying that what I do is a good idea. It's just that it feels much more smooth than using the recommended method.

  15. #55
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    There's been a few threads on the matter, I will attempt to find one now, but in each case the result is the conclusion that garrote is terrible as an opener, really terrible. This is due to the fact that you cannot gain energy from both rupture and garrote, and garrote ticks every 3 seconds whilst rupture ticks every 2.

    EDIT: Link - it devolves into a crap thread pretty quick, but the basic ideas of why you shouldn't garrote are there.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-01-15 at 03:51 PM.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    There's been a few threads on the matter, I will attempt to find one now, but in each case the result is the conclusion that garrote is terrible as an opener, really terrible. This is due to the fact that you cannot gain energy from both rupture and garrote, and garrote ticks every 3 seconds whilst rupture ticks every 2.

    EDIT: Link - it devolves into a crap thread pretty quick, but the basic ideas of why you shouldn't garrote are there.
    Thank you, I had a hard time finding information on that matter (I'm really shit at googling) and don't follow the relevant sites/forums regularly enough to be always up-to-date and that really cleared the issue up for me.
    Last edited by o03o; 2013-01-15 at 04:04 PM.

  17. #57
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Not necessarily. It takes a long time to gather the necessary energy required for two Mutilates(110 to be precise). The Envenom buff is up for a decent amount of time. Pooling to a fair amount of energy to guarantee at least one Mutilate should generally suffice(70~ energy) the remaining energy for your second Mutilate should come to you as you delve into the Envenom buff itself.

    Plays out like follows:
    - Pool to 70~ energy
    - Envenom
    - Mutilate
    - Second Mutilate should be available by now

    Outright pooling to 110 could easily lead to energy capping, and therefore shouldn't be done.
    You only need to pool to 50 energy with get two mutilates off.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    Request For Sticky! We need a thread like this here.
    Agreed. I was intending to do an FAQ section section but I kept putting it off ><

    Lach, if you ever get tired of updating the OP and need someone to keep it in shape, let me know, but you're welcome to do all the work =).

  19. #59
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    You only need to pool to 50 energy with get two mutilates off.
    This is where the issue lies, it's so variable and pooling only works depending on what you want to get out of it. Here's the quote from Aldriana

    Source

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldriana of EJ
    Just to clear up a bit of misinformation that seems to circulate around the forums: there is no inherent benefit to pooling. Pooling to 85 energy (or any other amount short of cap) before you Mutilate is 100% equivalent to Mutilating the second you have enough energy for the move. There is no magic level of energy that you want to always pool to.

    The advantage of pooling is and always has been that it allows you to adjust the timing on your moves to be more advantageous. The benefit is entirely in terms of increasing Envenom uptime by spacing them out more, spending more energy while you have cooldowns or other buffs up, minimizing rupture downtime, and so on.

    Hence, advise like "if your previous envenom has not dropped wait until it does or until your energy is in danger of capping before casting the next one" will increase DPS. Advice like "go into Shadow Blades/Vendetta with high (but uncapped) energy" will increase your DPS. Advice like "try to have enough energy that you will be able to cast two Mutilates during the buff before casting Envenom" will increase your DPS. But any recommendation of the form "always pool to X energy before casting Y" is going to be wrong.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-01-15 at 04:37 PM.
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  20. #60
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    Thanks for the info here. I've recently fallen back in love with my 6 year old rogue and this is a GREAT place to start for fresh information. Cheers.

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