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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Without the stealth requirement sure, but in terms of consuming SF, when I've also got Ambush which generates 2 CP instead... I'm not seeing the competition.
    Stealth requirements (and SF) is the only reason thats the case. without SF its 45 energy vs 60 energy, which could come farther into play (really 75% chance of 35 energy) but with SF, its as i stated.

    the whole reason that the theoretical ability generates a combo point is due to the fact that ambush generates 2.

    but yeah, thats what i was trying to get at. its no competition. if i could spend (75% chance) 10 energy to get 1 CP and ~60-80k damage.. i'd do it in a heart beat. thats the difference between the two openers (energy capping not as considered, its 3 seconds from application to tick, i wont usually be energy capped 3 GCD after the first hit)

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Q: Does Vendetta alter DoT tick damage (like Bandit Guile does)?
    A: No. Ideally land a full Rupture just before Vendetta and Shadow Blades to maximize the number of damaging attacks.
    It does though.
    Your Rupture damaged Training Dummy 1 Physical. (909 Overkill)
    Your Rupture damaged Training Dummy 1 Physical. (910 Overkill)
    Your Rupture damaged Training Dummy 1 Physical. (909 Overkill)
    <Vendetta>
    Your Rupture damaged Training Dummy 1 Physical. (1137 Overkill)
    Your Rupture damaged Training Dummy 1 Physical. (1137 Overkill)
    The way our dots function is rather simple: they take a snapshot of our character's buffs and debuffs when the skill is used, but reacts dinamically to the target's one.

    For example, if you had trinket procs, dancing steel and whatever the moment you apply Rupture on the target, it will benefits from those buffs for every ticks, even if they fade the second after the rupture landed. But it will benefits from the target's buffs/debuffs (vendetta, find weakness) only when those are active - hence 'dinamically'.

  3. #83
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    So does that make it better to land a Rupture AFTER Vendetta? And does it make it better to clip Ruptures if our buffs are just about to fall off? So we lose 1 tick of Rupture, but the next full Rupture gains the benefits of our buffs?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    So does that make it better to land a Rupture AFTER Vendetta? And does it make it better to clip Ruptures if our buffs are just about to fall off? So we lose 1 tick of Rupture, but the next full Rupture gains the benefits of our buffs?
    Not at all. Applying rupture before remains ideal. Dynamic updating of the damage buff means that anything applied beforehand is still buffed (UNlike bandit's guile in the MoP incarnation, which uses the damage at time of application). Ideally (but don't move your time around TOO much for this), you've just landed rupture and you've got enough CP to pop envenom the GCD after vendetta, to maximize poisons procs under vendetta, with only one cast of rupture while it's active.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Draigars View Post
    It does though.

    The way our dots function is rather simple: they take a snapshot of our character's buffs and debuffs when the skill is used, but reacts dinamically to the target's one.

    For example, if you had trinket procs, dancing steel and whatever the moment you apply Rupture on the target, it will benefits from those buffs for every ticks, even if they fade the second after the rupture landed. But it will benefits from the target's buffs/debuffs (vendetta, find weakness) only when those are active - hence 'dinamically'.
    Good stuff. Will get it added right away.

  6. #86
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Seeing as we don't have a quick questions/quick answers thread, I'm stealing this one for a second for this question:

    The dot provided by Crimson Tempest, does it's spell id work similarly to rupture or hemorrhage? By that, I mean is the main ability id, 121411, the same id for the dot like rupture's is, or does it have that quirky thing like hemo, where the ability id is 16511 but the dot component is 89775?
    I am the lucid dream
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  7. #87
    It works like hemo, with two separated spells.
    [21:02:30.957] Dryaan casts Crimson Tempest
    [21:02:31.258] Dryaan Crimson Tempest Sha of Fear 14761
    [21:02:31.277] Dryaan Crimson Tempest Dread Spawn 14632
    [21:02:31.277] Dryaan Crimson Tempest Dread Spawn 15087
    [21:02:31.712] Sha of Fear afflicted by Crimson Tempest from Dryaan
    [21:02:31.712] Dread Spawn afflicted by Crimson Tempest from Dryaan
    [21:02:31.725] Dread Spawn afflicted by Crimson Tempest from Dryaan
    [21:02:33.667] Dryaan Crimson Tempest Sha of Fear 5904
    [21:02:33.667] Dryaan Crimson Tempest Dread Spawn 6035
    [21:02:33.667] Dryaan Crimson Tempest Dread Spawn 5853
    Bolded: 121411
    Underlined: 122233

  8. #88
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Thank you so much
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  9. #89
    High Overlord
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    I have a question about Envenom buff uptime. What should I do to have good uptime ? For example- we start the fight, pop BL and I use all my CD's. Would it be better to get 9 CP then envenom ? Or, do i get 5 CP, pool energy, envenom, muti, muti ? This question is bothering me for a while now and I can't seem to find the right answer.
    Last edited by Khas; 2013-01-30 at 05:50 PM.
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  10. #90
    On pull, you want Envenom up as soon as possible. Once you've completed your opening sequence...

    Ambush > SnD > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta

    ...you go Mutilate till 5 CP and Envenom. During burst you should be able to stay close to 100% uptime - at 492 ilvl, I get 100% for the first 30sec if Dispatch procs frequently, and 80-90% if I'm unlucky. Outside of burst phases nothing changes in your playstyle, only the % uptime you get from it. Clipping Envenom at <1sec might help you maintain a higher % as it means less chance of it falling off, but that's marginal really. As long as you're comfortable with the rotation, you should be able to pull 60% uptime fairly easily - the rest is down to gear, buffs and encounter specifics.

    Not sure if this helps, but here's a video that might cover some of your questions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=xDHV3y59U6c - that attempt I had 54% uptime.
    Last edited by Lachtobi; 2013-01-30 at 06:04 PM.

  11. #91
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quite off topic, I apologise but it's been bugging me since I first saw that video, I've stolen a couple aesthetic ideas from your UI, but where in god's name are your combo points?
    I am the lucid dream
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  12. #92
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    On pull, you want Envenom up as soon as possible. Once you've completed your opening sequence...

    Ambush > SnD > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta

    ...you go Mutilate till 5 CP and Envenom. During burst you should be able to stay close to 100% uptime - at 492 ilvl, I get 100% for the first 30sec if Dispatch procs frequently, and 80-90% if I'm unlucky. Outside of burst phases nothing changes in your playstyle, only the % uptime you get from it. Clipping Envenom at <1sec might help you maintain a higher % as it means less chance of it falling off, but that's marginal really. As long as you're comfortable with the rotation, you should be able to pull 60% uptime fairly easily - the rest is down to gear, buffs and encounter specifics.

    Not sure if this helps, but here's a video that might cover some of your questions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=xDHV3y59U6c - that attempt I had 54% uptime.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5...?s=6745&e=7085

    According to logs from tonight i had 42.5 % envenom uptime. I'am pretty much sure my uptime for most of my logs shows uptime for max 50%. I didn't check all of them, but since my rotation was a routine for me, there were no big changes in fights unless fight mechanics forced me to. I will try to up the numbers for 10-20 % more.
    I did some research and guess I need to squeeze 1-2 envenom more each minute and I should be fine.
    And thanks for the video.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 12:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Quite off topic, I apologise but it's been bugging me since I first saw that video, I've stolen a couple aesthetic ideas from your UI, but where in god's name are your combo points?
    On his target frame, you can see them in different colors on top and anticipation charges are at the bottom
    Last edited by Khas; 2013-01-31 at 12:03 AM.
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Quite off topic, I apologise but it's been bugging me since I first saw that video, I've stolen a couple aesthetic ideas from your UI, but where in god's name are your combo points?
    Combo points 1 through 5 are attached to the Target frame as a standard part of ElvUI. Anticipation charges 1-5 I've overlayed on the power bar using PowerAuras.



    Here's the code for it:

    Code:
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  14. #94
    I have allways wondered if it's not worth energy pooling up to 95-100 energy before a 5 cp envenom (only if you dont have a dispatch proc ready). Depending on the number of Venomous Wounds procs this will usualy allow a third use of mutilate during the envenom buff. In case a dispatch proc is ready to go before a 5 cp envenom, that wold translate into pooling 85-90 energy before useing dispatch and then useing mutilate 3 times before the envenom buff ends. While trying this i was in no danger of energy caping.

    Ofc this shold not be done during Bloodlust. My haste rateing while trying this was 2406 (5.66%).

  15. #95
    You'd need to track VM ticks to avoid capping, but other than that it should be pretty straightforward. However, I'm not sure that an extra mutilate outweighs the loss of poison procs on auto attacks as you'd lower your overall Envenom uptime by this approach. Nifty if you can align it with some needed burst, like getting 5 CP up on the boss then Redict and Envenom on add with 90-95 Energy - beyond that, it seems very marginal.

  16. #96
    Here's a situation I find myself in alot now. I have 4-6 seconds left on rupture, I just hit five cp's and my last mutilate put me at 0-10 energy. Should I hit that envenom, mutilate, and then reapply rupture with 2-3 combo points, OR mutilate again to put me at 7 combo points, refresh with a 5cp rupture and then have a headstart on the next 5cp envenom? It feels like I get both more envenom uptime overall and more mutilates during envenom uptimes by pooling to 7 cp's before refreshing rupture but I'm not so sure...

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Here's a situation I find myself in alot now. I have 4-6 seconds left on rupture, I just hit five cp's and my last mutilate put me at 0-10 energy. Should I hit that envenom, mutilate, and then reapply rupture with 2-3 combo points, OR mutilate again to put me at 7 combo points, refresh with a 5cp rupture and then have a headstart on the next 5cp envenom? It feels like I get both more envenom uptime overall and more mutilates during envenom uptimes by pooling to 7 cp's before refreshing rupture but I'm not so sure...
    The fewer times I have to apply Rupture throughout a fight, the better I can align my CP and energy to maximize Envenom uptime. So from a pragmatic point of view, I prefer to wait those 2-4 seconds for a full Rupture and get overall fewer interruptions in my rotation.

    Add to this that the damage-per-energy ratio increases the more CP you spend per Rupture.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Here's a situation I find myself in alot now. I have 4-6 seconds left on rupture, I just hit five cp's and my last mutilate put me at 0-10 energy. Should I hit that envenom, mutilate, and then reapply rupture with 2-3 combo points, OR mutilate again to put me at 7 combo points, refresh with a 5cp rupture and then have a headstart on the next 5cp envenom? It feels like I get both more envenom uptime overall and more mutilates during envenom uptimes by pooling to 7 cp's before refreshing rupture but I'm not so sure...
    Of the two scenarios you offered, only one results in more specials being used under envenom, and only one sticks to 5-CP finishers. That one (waiting/renewing rupture first) is strictly superior. In the event you envenom first, you get (1) mut under envenom to apply rupture, but your envenom is gone before you have enough energy to get more muts out to fuel the next envenom. By pooling CP instead, you don't "waste" any envenom uptime by having no energy to attack with. Your analysis was correct =)

    That and it's easier, like Lachtobi said, which is a plus :P

  19. #99
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    A standard insert of rotation priority could be appropriate for the OP, I'm looking into improving it, but this is pretty darn accurate (taken primarily from simc with slight adaptations here and there):

    Ambush/Mutilate from stealth (dps difference is negligible, do which you prefer in honesty)
    If slice and dice is down, use slice and dice at whatever combo points you have to put it up
    If slice and dice is falling off (<2 seconds remaining), use envenom to refresh with whatever combo points you have
    If you're at high energy (~90+) and rupture has less than 2 seconds remaining, use a cp builder (dispatch > mutilate) [puts you in a good position to refresh]
    If rupture has less than 2 seconds remaining or if you're at 5 combo points and it has less than 5 seconds remaining refresh rupture
    If you're at 5 combo points use envenom
    If you're at less than 5 combo points and dispatch is availiable use dispatch
    Use mutilate otherwise.




    Any queries on why certain things are the way they are, ask away and I'll try and answer, if I don't know I'll let you know but endeavour to find out why.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-02-07 at 11:49 AM.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  20. #100
    Some of it was already in the list; some of it is basic stuff that can be read on most getting started guides out there and not in the scope of this thread; and some of it I've added. Also restructured the OP slightly - under Rotations & Priorities you will now find:

    Q: I've got the standard rotation down, but what about all those special situations?
    A: Refresh Rupture at any CP if it has <2 sec left
    A: Envenom at any CP if Slice and Dice has <2sec left
    A: If Rupture has 3-6 sec remaining and 5 CP for Envenom, wait for the 2 sec mark and refresh Rupture before continuing your rotation
    A: If at 1-4 CP, use Blindside proc right away. If at 5+ CP and no Envenom up, Envenom then Blindside.
    One thing I don't understand in your post is "if you're at 5 combo points and it has less than 4 seconds remaining refresh rupture". Why not wait those two seconds (or get some Anticipation charges if at risk of energy capping) and get the full duration?

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