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  1. #161
    It doesn't seem to be loading from the armory correctly at this moment. I'd recommend trying again later; if you want to check now, you can manually add your enchants back into that empty line. When I refreshed you from the armory, you were missing gems as well. 99% sure it's just a bug.

    On mastery and haste: mastery has historically been ahead, but mastery increases the value of haste and crit, but does not increase the value of mastery. It would eventually be the case that haste and crit would both catch mastery if you gained enough mastery without gaining other stats. This effect has been pushed forward to the current point in time because of RPPM procs (trinket, meta). This doesn't mean haste > mastery, but that there is a "sweet spot" where reforging haste into mastery OR mastery into haste would be a DPS loss. Crit is distinctly behind at this point in time. I haven't yet seen a rogue profile where haste was over mastery when the stat values of both were equal, so you will most likely see mastery = haste (for adding more) when mastery is higher than haste.

    Edit: thanks for asking because that answer belongs here, but for your particular character, before manually re-adding enchants, I'm showing mastery > crit > haste. What's different from the profile you're looking at?

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    It doesn't seem to be loading from the armory correctly at this moment. I'd recommend trying again later; if you want to check now, you can manually add your enchants back into that empty line. When I refreshed you from the armory, you were missing gems as well. 99% sure it's just a bug.

    On mastery and haste: mastery has historically been ahead, but mastery increases the value of haste and crit, but does not increase the value of mastery. It would eventually be the case that haste and crit would both catch mastery if you gained enough mastery without gaining other stats. This effect has been pushed forward to the current point in time because of RPPM procs (trinket, meta). This doesn't mean haste > mastery, but that there is a "sweet spot" where reforging haste into mastery OR mastery into haste would be a DPS loss. Crit is distinctly behind at this point in time. I haven't yet seen a rogue profile where haste was over mastery when the stat values of both were equal, so you will most likely see mastery = haste (for adding more) when mastery is higher than haste.

    Edit: thanks for asking because that answer belongs here, but for your particular character, before manually re-adding enchants, I'm showing mastery > crit > haste. What's different from the profile you're looking at?
    Thanks for your thorough answer, mine shows

    -bad reforging idea over hit and expertise caps snipped for space in the sticky-

    Any time it can, it seems to reforge all my mastery to haste, and also crit into haste when hit/expertise cap is met.

    Also this sentence confused me:

    "mastery has historically been ahead, but mastery increases the value of haste and crit, but does not increase the value of mastery." What does that mean?
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-04-12 at 08:06 AM.

  3. #163
    Ryme gives another succinct and less mathy explanation below.

    To simplify, if you look at deadly (instant) poison damage: say you do 100k DPS from instant poisons at 0% haste, 0% crit, and 0% mastery. If you increase any one stat by 10%, your damage goes up 10% to 110k. If you add another 10% on the same one, you go up another 10% of the original DPS, to 120k. At 30%, your damage goes up 30%: 100k (1.0)(1.0)(1.3) = 130k. If, instead, you increase each of them by 10%, your damage goes up more, even though you've moved the percents the same total amount: 100k (1.1)(1.1)(1.1) = 133.1k. The first 10% was worth 10k; since the second 10% is affected by the first 10%, it's worth 11k, and since the third 10% is affected by both of priors, it's worth 11.1k.

    The reason this is simplified is that moving 1% for different stats requires WILDLY different values. With our starting stats for (all) gear levels, it takes less mastery to go up 1% damage than either haste or crit - but the same principal applies. Adding any stat increases your damage linearly (the same amount the more you get) - with some exceptions, but that's beyond the point. When you increase 1 stat, every stat other than the one you raised becomes better. If you go from 0% crit chance to 50% crit chance, you'll gain the same DPS going from 50% to 100% (approximately), but mastery and haste at 50% crit would be worth 50% more than they were at 0% crit (approximately).

    Mastery starts with a HUGE lead on crit and haste, so we want a whole lot of it, but there comes a point where you can have SO much mastery that other stats have become more valuable. For the same reason, removing all crit and haste rating lowers the value of mastery significantly. Some classes never reach the point where their secondary stats swap positions in value, but we do.



    EDIT: try THIS... it's dirty and probably not optimal, but the reforge tool seems to be broken for the moment.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-04-12 at 08:08 AM.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilde View Post
    Also this sentence confused me:

    "mastery has historically been ahead, but mastery increases the value of haste and crit, but does not increase the value of mastery." What does that mean?
    So, to try and be succinct: When you increase the value of mastery, your poison damage increases, mastery doesn't have diminishing returns* but equally it doesn't have increasing returns (thank god).

    However, if you're doing more poison damage then it makes sense that you want to get more poison procs and more poison crits thus as you increase the amount of mastery you have, you increase the value placed upon haste and crit whilst mastery remains (very roughly) around the same.


    *This is to say, that when you get more mastery, the amount of mastery needed to increase your poison damage by further amounts remains the same - this is why you can get silly (read: awesome) amounts of % increase in mastery.
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  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Windlord involves several adds in the first half of the fight. Feng HC involves 8. Elegon also involves several adds. It's not exactly uncommon.

    Except that maintaining the single target + FoK rotation is infinitely easier AND it saves your single-target rotation following the AoE phase, making it the better choice for most AoE situations, I'd say.
    With your fellow players getting better dps and aoe. I am not sure how that rotation works out well? The adds die way to fast. Can someone explain to me how that works. There has got to be a better rotation than this....

    Please don't quote 3-month old posts from old encounters. It's like necro-ing threads; it's neither relevant, nor is the poster likely to answer/have logs. -Mugajak
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-04-13 at 07:24 AM.

  6. #166
    I remembered there was a post about using mutilate while under 35% with envenom up. Is it still better to use mutilate under 35% with envenom up due to both hits being able to proc poisons for 55 energy or is the extra damage from 2 dispatches for 60 energy better? I believe the post was before the dispatch buff as well which is why I'm asking

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nryka View Post
    The only obvious, yet gray case I'm facing is this: I'm at 4 CP, I have a Blindside proc and currently no Envenom buff. Should I use Envenom then Blindside, or Blindside then Envenom?

    I'm currently doing the former because I want to benefit from increased poison procs on my Blindside, and I've been doing 4CP Envenom for years now; but lots of rogues swear only by 5CP Envenoms, and no less.

    What's your take on this?
    I'm in the same boat...... i keep reading it's all about uptime but also read 4 point envenoms aren't good. There are many times in a fight where i have to decide if i want to 4 cp envenom to keep my uptime or to mut with 4+ cp to get a 5 cp envenom.

  8. #168
    Dispatch does more damage than mutilate in spite of the reduced chance to proc poisons, and envenom uptime is high enough that you don't need to use many CP generators at all outside of envenom uptime as haste increases, so to answer both questions: 5CP envenoms if you've got anticipation- you're not looking at LOSING CP from over-capping, and you should indeed be using dispatch sub 35%. The only situation where mutilate would pull ahead of dispatch would be if you're capping on energy in spite of spending it - and even then I'm not entirely sure it's better.

  9. #169
    The Patient vickvinegar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Dispatch does more damage than mutilate in spite of the reduced chance to proc poisons, and envenom uptime is high enough that you don't need to use many CP generators at all outside of envenom uptime as haste increases, so to answer both questions: 5CP envenoms if you've got anticipation- you're not looking at LOSING CP from over-capping, and you should indeed be using dispatch sub 35%. The only situation where mutilate would pull ahead of dispatch would be if you're capping on energy in spite of spending it - and even then I'm not entirely sure it's better.
    I haven't been a raiding rogue for a while, i'm not nearly as in the loop as i used to be. I get what you're saying about dispatch and about situational awareness, but there are times where RNG screws me and straight up and i have to decide (no dispatch procs) if i should take a 4 CP envenom or mut again just to make sure i get a 5 CP envenom. No disrespect or if i'm reading someting wrong but there are time's where i just don't know.

  10. #170
    Thanks for the clarification Mugajak.

    Queberts, if you don't have the Anticipation level 90 talent then using 4 cp envenoms is better than wasting a combo point however if you do spec into anticipation then being at 4 combo points you should mutilate again as you will then have 5 combo points and 1 stack of anticipation (2 if it crits) and once you use envenom that anticipation will become combo points on the target.

  11. #171
    The Patient vickvinegar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucano View Post
    Thanks for the clarification Mugajak.

    Queberts, if you don't have the Anticipation level 90 talent then using 4 cp envenoms is better than wasting a combo point however if you do spec into anticipation then being at 4 combo points you should mutilate again as you will then have 5 combo points and 1 stack of anticipation (2 if it crits) and once you use envenom that anticipation will become combo points on the target.
    Gotcha. Now how about if the 2 pc T15 comes into play, does that change it up all? I recently got gloves, and now that there is an extra second of the envenom buff. Can I get away with doing 4 cp envenoms to keep the buff going, or just keep rolling 5 Cp envenoms with anticipation.

  12. #172
    I haven't heard anything about the 2 set changing it at all as you're not actually using another combo point it only affects the duration of the buff. You're still better off doing 5 cp envenoms with anticipation as it increases the amount of damage the ability does and again without the talent use 4 cp so not to waste them. All the tier bonus does will give you maybe an extra mutilate or dispatch while under envenom due to the buff lasting longer.

  13. #173
    The Patient vickvinegar's Avatar
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    cool, thanks

  14. #174
    I have recently started playing my rogue again after some years, so I'm quite rusty and have some questions about Assassination. My Rogue is Vegapunk on US-Arathor Tell me if there is anything I need to change.


    1. If I have Slice and Dice, Rupture,and Envenom up with plenty of time left on them. I'm at 5 CP do i use some energy for more combo points to put into Anticipation?
    2. When starting my rotation what should I get up first Rupture or Slice and Dice?
    3. IF rupture and Slice and dice have plenty of time on them. I have 5 combo points for an envenom but low energy, do I use it right away or pool some energy to be able to mutilate right after Envenoming?

    Any Tips and Tricks would be much appreciated

  15. #175
    1) Yes, treat your anticipation just like combo points that don't affect finishers - if you need to refresh nothing, by all means, keep building CP (as anticipation charges).
    2) Slice and dice if you're in current gear levels. Rupture may* still be equal in last tier's normal gear.
    3) Pool before envenom unless you have procs up that will give you significantly greater effect (> .9 DP proc of damage) now and will wear out before you're done pooling.

    Alternative answers: read the opening post. The answers are there already.

  16. #176
    Hello,

    I'm a raid leader of a currently 2/13 hc guild. Our rooster consists of 13 people, so I need to make some rotations for farm bosses, and to help me decide who to take to which boss, I asked my raiders to provide me a BiS list for normal modes.
    Getting to the point, the rogue on my squad marked in the BiS list that we will only need to go for 2 piece and use 3 off set pieces instead. I found that quite odd, 'cause although I know little about rogues, what I know made me think that the 4 piece would be quite powerful. So I went around checking some armories of rogues in guilds with a similar progress, and they all seemed to go for the 4 piece. Even in sites like mr.robot or the t15 normal profile in simcraft for assassi, show that rogues should go for 4 piece. So when I confronted him with this, he just said that the off pieces have mastery, so they are better 'cause the other stats are shit for him. Like I said, my knowledge of rogues isn't that extensive, so I couldn't properly argue with him. I was wondering if any of you could tell me if he's indeed rogue, like i suspect.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Sepharoth View Post
    Hello,

    I'm a raid leader of a currently 2/13 hc guild. Our rooster consists of 13 people, so I need to make some rotations for farm bosses, and to help me decide who to take to which boss, I asked my raiders to provide me a BiS list for normal modes.
    Getting to the point, the rogue on my squad marked in the BiS list that we will only need to go for 2 piece and use 3 off set pieces instead. I found that quite odd, 'cause although I know little about rogues, what I know made me think that the 4 piece would be quite powerful. So I went around checking some armories of rogues in guilds with a similar progress, and they all seemed to go for the 4 piece. Even in sites like mr.robot or the t15 normal profile in simcraft for assassi, show that rogues should go for 4 piece. So when I confronted him with this, he just said that the off pieces have mastery, so they are better 'cause the other stats are shit for him. Like I said, my knowledge of rogues isn't that extensive, so I couldn't properly argue with him. I was wondering if any of you could tell me if he's indeed rogue, like i suspect.
    He's wrong. 4pc is good (certainly better than a small difference in secondary stats).

    Additionally, while mastery is the "best" stat for an assassination rogue, all our stats are pretty closely weighted because they positively scale off each other with haste becoming even better with every RPPM mechanic he has (ToT trinkets and legendary meta) and as such, a ratio of mastery to haste should be maintained.
    Last edited by Squirl; 2013-04-22 at 11:00 PM.

  18. #178
    So, I've done some testing regarding the Haste>Mastery build. By going full-haste, you will have those pulls where everything chain procs, and it's insane damage. However, most of the pulls, the trinket procs will be more in line with people that aren't stacking Haste. Basically, your peaks are Everest-like, but your valleys are just atrocious. Consistency can't be underrated regarding PvE content. You will see much more consistent dps by utilizing the hybrid build of a balanced amount of Haste and Mastery.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahdehl View Post
    So, I've done some testing regarding the Haste>Mastery build. By going full-haste, you will have those pulls where everything chain procs, and it's insane damage. However, most of the pulls, the trinket procs will be more in line with people that aren't stacking Haste. Basically, your peaks are Everest-like, but your valleys are just atrocious. Consistency can't be underrated regarding PvE content. You will see much more consistent dps by utilizing the hybrid build of a balanced amount of Haste and Mastery.
    I pray you have lovely logs of both builds
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  20. #180
    Quick question: has anyone done the maths for the point at which it becomes worthwhile clipping a rupture to replace it with a 'better' rupture?

    Rupture scales with AP. And so, a rupture cast while at a higher agility level, say, during a trinket proc, would be better than a rupture cast at a regular time, and so it would be a dps loss not to. However, clipping a rupture with less than 2 ticks is a dps loss. Just wondering which effect is stronger as a function of, say agility (since our trinkets proc agility instead of AP).

    It would be interesting to math this out, to arrive at a relationship of 'extra agility gained' vs 'remaining time on existing rupture', to know when it's optimal to refresh. Just wondering if anyone has done this already, before I even start thinking about it in any detail.

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