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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I pray you have lovely logs of both builds
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    89ten

  2. #182
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimp View Post
    Quick question: has anyone done the maths for the point at which it becomes worthwhile clipping a rupture to replace it with a 'better' rupture?

    Rupture scales with AP. And so, a rupture cast while at a higher agility level, say, during a trinket proc, would be better than a rupture cast at a regular time, and so it would be a dps loss not to. However, clipping a rupture with less than 2 ticks is a dps loss. Just wondering which effect is stronger as a function of, say agility (since our trinkets proc agility instead of AP).

    It would be interesting to math this out, to arrive at a relationship of 'extra agility gained' vs 'remaining time on existing rupture', to know when it's optimal to refresh. Just wondering if anyone has done this already, before I even start thinking about it in any detail.
    You know what I love about you, wimp? The sheer questions you ask, things that would often not even cross my mind to math out. To begin, are we sure the formula on wowhead is correct? 5 points: (231 + 32 * 1 * 5 + 0.062 * AP * 1 * 0.5 * 24) over 24 sec

    For that matter, what is the formula used for a 6 point rupture, the basic structure is clear, but the modifier on the AP is something that needs to be found (if it hasn't been documented already).

    I'm assuming here, that this is probably only going to be "worth it" at high combo point usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahdehl View Post
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  3. #183
    @wimp/Ryme - please don't forget to include the opportunity cost (CP, even if only over the course of the fight) involved in clipping rupture. I don't see Rup doing a significant amount of damage ever, and overcoming that gap. If venomous wounds is based on the application of rupture and doesn't proc independently based on your stats at the time of proc, I could see it happening, but otherwise I'm at a loss as to how Rup would pull ahead of the cost involved in putting it up early.

  4. #184
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    The reason it peaks my interest is it's something that simulationcraft already does in it's default profile, it will clip rupture to place a new 5cp one once rupture reaches a low enough duration (but not low enough to avoid clipping).
    I am the lucid dream
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  5. #185
    I... had not noticed that. Have you tried tweaking the APL to avoid the clip (renew <2s) so long as it would cause both CP/Anticipation and Energy to cap?

  6. #186
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    I... had not noticed that. Have you tried tweaking the APL to avoid the clip (renew <2s) so long as it would cause both CP/Anticipation and Energy to cap?
    Yeah, results in a slight (order of a couple hundred) dps loss.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  7. #187
    Regarding Blindside proccs @ 3 cp and postponing using it until you've done 1x mut + envenom. I feel like it would make sense to never use a mutilate while you've got blindside active, since muti got a 30% chance of proccing blindside and the effect doesn't stack afaik, meaning you could potentially waste a blindside?

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    A: If at 1-4 CP, use Blindside proc right away. If at 5+ CP and no Envenom up, Envenom then Blindside.
    ^ from the opening post/FAQ.

    Why would you ever save blindside for Envenom? Mutilate benefits more from occurring under envenom than dispatch does (2 possible poison proc events, as opposed to one).

  9. #189
    Oh sorry, I was tired yesterday when reading and thought I read this part in the OP:

    "Blindside will proc poisons. If you have Blindside procced and 3 CP, Mut to 5(6), pool to 75-80, Envenom, then use Blindside. If you are at 4 CP when Blindside procs, go ahead and use it before you Envenom to get to 5 CP.
    Mut > Ambush for opener since Ambush wont proc Blindside. Ambush hits harder than Mut but overall Mut will be better."

    But yeah I thought so. Mutilate when you have blindside procced seem stupid which is why I never do it.

  10. #190
    Hello.

    Last week I've acquired the T15 4p. I've tried it and I'm a bit lost, especially with the opener.
    The FAQ suggests to open as follow : Ambush > SnD > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation

    Is it still true with the 4P? I'm thinking about the Shadow Blades triggered before the first mut. Since I can do many Envenom with only 2CP rupture, is it worth ? Wouldn't an opener like this : Ambush > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Shadow Blades > Vendetta > Standard Rotation be more efficient ?
    However I realized the difference will be tight, since I clip Envenom every second.
    Last edited by Kaluna; 2013-04-28 at 11:51 AM. Reason: typo

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Q: What's the best opener as Assassination in 5.2?
    A: Mut > SnD > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation. [1,2]
    I've got to admit some confusion as to what people are reading; is opening the FAQ pulling up a cached page rather than the current one, or something? It hasn't been edited since March 18th, yet people seem to be reading something else. Otherwise, you might be reading early responses to the original questions, before it was formatted as an FAQ - note that most of the initial answers have links [1,2] pointing to where the information is discussed in detail (so grateful).

    To answer your question 1 step more directly: never ever pop SB followed by Vendetta - SB doesn't trigger a GCD but benefits abilities that do, and vendetta does take a GCD. Vendetta > SB can be done without losing a beat, however.

  12. #192
    @ Kaluna: The suggested opener hasn't been updated for quite some time, so I'd take it with a grain of salt. But if someone can set it up in SimC, I would be interesting to compare the following openers (assuming T15 BiS & Shadow Focus):

    • Mut > SnD > Shadow Blades > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta
    • Mut > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Shadow Blades
    • Mut > Shadow Blades > Rupture > Mut > SnD > Vendetta

    @ Wimp: I asked myself that question a month back, but got stuck when I realized that the available formulas for Rupture and Venomous Wounds are both inaccurate. If someone wants a stab at it, know that Rupture procs are based on the AP at the time Rupture was applied, while Venomous Wound procs use your current AP.
    Guild Leader of Eye of the Tigger on EU-Draenor

  13. #193
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    @Lachtobi YOU COPIED MY SIGNATURE IDEA!

    Also, I'd actually be really interested in sims on those 3 rotations. I currently use Mut>Mut>Rupt>SnD(If have anticipation active) then CDs.

  14. #194
    The trend we *should* see: rupture loses priority to SnD as gear increases; more haste decreases reliance on rupture for energy, so the doubled benefit (damage AND energy) scales on only one side, where auto-attack and poison damage scale higher in comparison.

    The exact placement of the best Shadow Blades in the opener with 4p is a more interesting question, since it shortens the GCD. I suspect one of the following 2 profiles should come ahead:

    Mut > SnD > SB > Mut > Rup > Vend
    Mut > SnD > Mut > Rup > Vend > SB

    The outcome between them could actually vary with some settings for temp buffs like Berserking or Synapse Springs; make sure not to use them on the opening mutilate, but only after SnD is up, preferably with SB. Not only does this ensure your buffs align properly later in the fight, but all other buffs last significantly longer and this will cause the greatest overlap of buffs that can be used to multiplicative power.

    It's also worth noting that with Renataki's Soul Charm, agility increases over time until 20 seconds into the fight, and delaying shadow blades briefly gains some power compared to without using the trinket.

    Modeling this is starting to become a mess.

  15. #195
    I just main switched from my WW monk to a rogue (Smoke Bomb OP) and two really annoying things are:

    Vendetta is on the GCD and triggers a GCD when cast, similar behavior to BM Focus Fire
    Blindside procs just as the GCD from Mutilate is over, whereas most other melee spec procs are instant (see DK Rime, Windwalker Combo Breaker, etc.)

    Things I'm loving about rogues:

    Cloak of Shadows, Feint + Elusiveness = never die to boss AoE
    Smoke Bomb

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    I just main switched from my WW monk to a rogue
    Welcome to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Vendetta is on the GCD and triggers a GCD when cast, similar behavior to BM Focus Fire
    I'm with you on this one. They removed Adrenaline Rush from the GCD last xpac; they should remove this one as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Things I'm loving about rogues:

    Cloak of Shadows, Feint + Elusiveness = never die to boss AoE
    Smoke Bomb
    Add Growl/2xEvasion and Shadowstep to that list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    @Lachtobi YOU COPIED MY SIGNATURE IDEA!
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  17. #197
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Long duration (450 +/-20%)
    Mut > SnD > Shadow Blades> Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields:199,079 dps (error: 134dps)
    Distribution - Max: 226,300, min: 176,284 - Range: 50,016

    Mut > SnD > Mut > Rupture > Vendetta > Shadow Blades (*)> Standard Rotation
    Yields: 199,265 dps (error: 134dps)
    Distribution - Max: 226,455 min: 180,126 - Range: 46,329

    Mut > Shadow Blades> Rupture > Mut > SnD> Vendetta > Standard Rotation
    Yields: 198,805 dps (error: 134dps)
    Distribution - Max: 230,443, min: 178,454 - Range: 51,989


    (*) - It is marginally better to wait for the GCD to end before using Shadow Blades here

    Borrowed my old formatting and added range (a higher range means results will be more inconsistent each time you try the opener).

    If people would like me to run this again on short duration (gives a nice view of burst and a "closer" view of the opener) as was done before, let me know.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-04-29 at 10:08 AM.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  18. #198
    Quick question: did you have a 4-set when running those numbers?

    Also... would you be able to PM me the different priority action lists you've used to work these out? Opener optimisation sounds like a fun game to play...

  19. #199
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Yes, this was done on the T15 BiS set up in simulationcraft, to test to optimal opener with T15 4 set as opposed to the old one in the OP which was for T14 4 set.

    And, yeah, sure
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    @wimp/Ryme - please don't forget to include the opportunity cost (CP, even if only over the course of the fight) involved in clipping rupture. I don't see Rup doing a significant amount of damage ever, and overcoming that gap. If venomous wounds is based on the application of rupture and doesn't proc independently based on your stats at the time of proc, I could see it happening, but otherwise I'm at a loss as to how Rup would pull ahead of the cost involved in putting it up early.
    Quick and dirty approximation using shadowcraft. Changing Shadowcraft such that all ruptures behave as though they are 2 ticks shorter than normal. In this case you need rupture to do between 40% and 50% more rupture damage to cover the cp loss. If you only lose 1 tick on average you need 20% to 25% more rupture damage.

    These results don't necessarily correspond to real world values but I think it does show what all intuitively expect, rupture does so little damage that snapshotting it at high agi values doesn't offer a lot of potential for dps improvement. I suspect you could get a small dps increase if you clipped ruptures very carefully but I don't the potential is there to make it worth the effort.

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