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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord Puck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    Yes, well those people don't have the divine protection of Elune herself on their side.
    "Yo Tyrande your impatience decimated the majority of our forces but Elune is watching over you so we cool!"

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by The EagleOwl Mage View Post
    Do you honestly believe military forces allow headstrong and reckless people to command their troops?
    Varian led the force of Alliance to storm undercity and Garrosh led horde army to NR. Both of them have won the wars so why not? Like I said before people make mistake all the time. People don't always get to choose their leaders and when they can choose they don't always choose the right one. Thrall made mistake by choosing Garrosh.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2013-01-15 at 08:52 AM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    by these people you mean everyone? because as far as I know noone is perfect.
    Let's be Honest here..... When was it ever said Tyrande was a tactical genius? Or Even a compenant commander.

    She was a Priestess.. a Warrior Priestess no doubt, but that doesn't give you a natural command of troops.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 08:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Varian led the force of Alliance to storm undercity and Garrosh led horde army to NR. Both of them have won the wars so why not?
    Something there kind of bugs me.

    All Garrosh did was defend a keep he built in a very stupid place and then said a hundred Orcs to die in Icecrown.

    All Varian did was..... teleport outside of Undercity with no logical reasoning as to how.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Let's be Honest here..... When was it ever said Tyrande was a tactical genius? Or Even a compenant commander.

    She was a Priestess.. a Warrior Priestess no doubt, but that doesn't give you a natural command of troops.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 08:53 AM ----------



    Something there kind of bugs me.

    All Garrosh did was defend a keep he built in a very stupid place and then said a hundred Orcs to die in Icecrown.

    All Varian did was..... teleport outside of Undercity with no logical reasoning as to how.
    I have been trying to say this for very long time. She has strong heart and is powerful in her own right but she is by no mean perfect in every way.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 08:58 AM ----------

    [/COLOR]

    Something there kind of bugs me.

    All Garrosh did was defend a keep he built in a very stupid place and then said a hundred Orcs to die in Icecrown.

    All Varian did was..... teleport outside of Undercity with no logical reasoning as to how.[/QUOTE]

    Varian killed the man who made the gas the that killed Bolvar and his aa army. You may not see what Garrosh did in game but lore wise he actually came back from NR as a hero of the horde. What you see in game is not everything there is to the lore because by this logic all leaders just sit in their throne doing nothing.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by The EagleOwl Mage View Post
    "Yo Tyrande your impatience decimated the majority of our forces but Elune is watching over you so we cool!"
    Yeah. Yeah that's pretty much what happened in the war of the ancients. She led sentinels to attack Azshara took out most of the guards but ended up getting pretty much all of the sentinels killed and almost killed herself if not for Elune's protection. When was it said she had patience from her 10,000 years of life? Or that she didn't get a bunch of sentinels killed now and again?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Varian killed the man who made the gas the that killed Bolvar and his aa army. You may not see what Garrosh did in game but lore wise he actually came back from NR as a hero of the horde. What you see in game is not everything there is to the lore because by this logic all leaders just sit in their throne doing nothing.
    Let's not make excuses for Garrosh, his command in NR was poor, with Saurfang picking up the slack. Cataclysm is when Garrosh actually showed tactical Accumen.

    But thats "Bad" I guess.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 09:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    Yeah. Yeah that's pretty much what happened in the war of the ancients. She led sentinels to attack Azshara took out most of the guards but ended up getting pretty much all of the sentinels killed and almost killed herself if not for Elune's protection. When was it said she had patience from her 10,000 years of life? Or that she didn't get a bunch of sentinels killed now and again?
    And in Warcraft 3 she basically Stood around angrily telling the Sentinals to kill the Humans and Orcs, and when the Scourge and Burning Legion showed up..... was still wanting to kill the humans and orcs.

    It took Malfurion basically telling her she's acting like a bitch to make her stop being stupid and irrational.

    If anything, Tyrande's track record seems about on par.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Varian led the force of Alliance to storm undercity and Garrosh led horde army to NR. Both of them have won the wars so why not? Like I said before people make mistake all the time. People don't always get to choose their leaders and when they can choose they don't always choose the right one. Thrall made mistake by choosing Garrosh.
    Varian did storm Undercity, but he didn't lose the majority of his forces there. Sometimes a frontal assault is the most effective option.
    Garrosh mainly stays in charge because his underlings are just as headstrong and reckless as he is. Thrall pretty much admitted that putting him in charge was stupid, but it's to late to change that now.

    Sure, everybody makes mistakes. But there's a difference between sending accidentally sending orders to the wrong troop and purposely choosing a vastly more inefficient strategy because you're to impatient.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Let's not make excuses for Garrosh, his command in NR was poor, with Saurfang picking up the slack. Cataclysm is when Garrosh actually showed tactical Accumen.

    But thats "Bad" I guess.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 09:04 AM ----------



    And in Warcraft 3 she basically Stood around angrily telling the Sentinals to kill the Humans and Orcs, and when the Scourge and Burning Legion showed up..... was still wanting to kill the humans and orcs.

    It took Malfurion basically telling her she's acting like a bitch to make her stop being stupid and irrational.

    If anything, Tyrande's track record seems about on par.
    i don't know if his tactical was poor or not but he came back as a hero in lore. What I said was just an example to the guy who said that who would choose head-strong and reckless person as their leader. I just gave an example that people don't always get to choose thier leader or when they choose one it may not be the best one.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    i don't know if his tactical was poor or not but he came back as a hero in lore. What I said was just an example to the guy who said that who would choose head-strong and reckless person as their leader. I just gave an example that people don't always get to choose thier leader or when they choose one it may not be the best one.
    True enough, I see it as a lapse in judgement with Thrall.. merely going with a popular runt who didn't really do anything rather than apointing someone more steady handed.

  10. #50
    Isn't he high king already? I really dislike that he's king of the alliance to begin with and I really hope the scraped the Trial of the High King crap. He's the king of the humans, not the king of the draenei or the night elves or dwarves. They're basically turning him into the warchief of the alliance. And of course if they continue they'll just make the other races look like incompetent idiots like they did to the night elves. I hope he dies.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dybia View Post
    Name one thing Varian has that he hasn't had to fight tooth and nail to keep. Saw his father assassinated by his friend, saw his kingdom destroyed, Lothar the man who was like a second father to him killed in battle with the horde, then once his kingdom was won back all the men and women that had fought to liberate it disappeared through the dark portal so so long friends and heroes that returned his homeland, took a wife who was promptly killed after they had a child, then the events of the comics where he was a slave fighting in the arenas and even took the slightest bit of respect away from it for at least one orc, then once he finally gets back and takes command, he finds out Arthas who had been like a little brother to him while he and his people were in Lordaeron has become the lich king and then when the fight against said lich king begins his best friend who had taken care of his son while he was away is killed(at least to his knowledge), in his short story he was pretty much killed defending Anduin from the twilight's hammer, now his son the one thing he's barely managed to hold onto was just about killed.
    I give a quote by another perso which marks my point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganaut View Post
    I've yet to see any of that anger in Varian that we saw when he re-joined the game. He has gone from one extreme to another.
    I would've accepted him if he kept his feral nature and racial hatred, I would've praised him if he'd shown himself cunning or willing to sacrifice others in defending his ideals (a quality of a true king).
    Now for the human race as a whole in Warcraft. A race of children all abandoned by their parents with nothing but scrolls with legends of Tyr and the titanic watchers of Northrend. They fended for themselves and learned from Tyr's valor and wrecked the asses of the troll empire helping the elves who were overwhelmed. How have Varian or the Warcraft humans not given thousands of lifetimes or rivers of blood to get where they are? They didn't even have the luxury of living for thousands of years. They learned what they could with their short lives and pushed limits.
    Trolls defeated Aqir Empire. An empire so vast and mighty that it required all might of Night Elves and intervention of Bronze Dragonflight to merely halt a south-eastern splinter of it in the War of Shifting Sands. And then the same trolls were simply defeated by freshly-made human mages. Pffffft.

    Night Elves have fought the friggin' Burning Legion, they effectively caused and survived The Shattering and radically rebuilt their culture to avoid using arcane and stand vigil over the world. They literally went through an Apocalypse, and due to immortality, lived to this day. But it turns out they are actually a bunch of damsels in distress, waiting for the muscular and courageous humans to save the day...

    No, really, W40k got it way better. In Warhammer, humans are also a younger race, but they have overwhelming numbers and mercy of their nigh dead, xenophobic, tyrannic yet divine Emperor on their side.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Isn't he high king already? I really dislike that he's king of the alliance to begin with and I really hope the scraped the Trial of the High King crap. He's the king of the humans, not the king of the draenei or the night elves or dwarves. They're basically turning him into the warchief of the alliance. And of course if they continue they'll just make the other races look like incompetent idiots like they did to the night elves. I hope he dies.
    He is not king of AA. He acts like Lothar used to do which was the commander of the original AA except he is king too but Lothar was not king. That's it.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    He is not king of AA. He acts like Lothar used to do which was the commander of the original AA except he is king too but Lothar was not king. That's it.
    He was holding secret talks to bring the blood elves into the alliance without consulting other members of the alliance. That goes a little beyond being a commander. And if he's commander he should be called commander, he's not king of the freaking alliance, he's king of Stormwind.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    He was holding secret talks to bring the blood elves into the alliance without consulting other members of the alliance. That goes a little beyond being a commander. And if he's commander he should be called commander, he's not king of the freaking alliance, he's king of Stormwind.
    How is that have anything to do with what i said? He is the king of Stormwind and he hold the highest position in AA's military force. That's why he is called High King. This was confirmed by Metzen.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    How is that have anything to do with what i said? He is the king of Stormwind and he hold the highest position in AA's military force. That's why he is called High King. This was confirmed by Metzen.
    Bringing the blood elves into the alliance isn't military, it's political. He has no business making secret alliances and then coming back and saying, "oh yeah guys, you're allied with the blood elves now and you have no choice in the matter." He should not be called high king, king is not a military title.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Bringing the blood elves into the alliance isn't military, it's political. He has no business making secret alliances and then coming back and saying, "oh yeah guys, you're allied with the blood elves now and you have no choice in the matter." He should not be called high king, king is not a military title.
    He is a king of SW so why he should not be called by that name? It's the name that AA gave him in his honor. Secretly vring BE into AA doesn't make him the king of AA. He would have to have other leaders from other races allow it in the end anyway. There's no point in arguing in the first place because Metzen already confirmed that Varian's position is not the king of AA.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    I give a quote by another perso which marks my point:

    I would've accepted him if he kept his feral nature and racial hatred, I would've praised him if he'd shown himself cunning or willing to sacrifice others in defending his ideals (a quality of a true king).

    Trolls defeated Aqir Empire. An empire so vast and mighty that it required all might of Night Elves and intervention of Bronze Dragonflight to merely halt a south-eastern splinter of it in the War of Shifting Sands. And then the same trolls were simply defeated by freshly-made human mages. Pffffft.

    Night Elves have fought the friggin' Burning Legion, they effectively caused and survived The Shattering and radically rebuilt their culture to avoid using arcane and stand vigil over the world. They literally went through an Apocalypse, and due to immortality, lived to this day. But it turns out they are actually a bunch of damsels in distress, waiting for the muscular and courageous humans to save the day...

    No, really, W40k got it way better. In Warhammer, humans are also a younger race, but they have overwhelming numbers and mercy of their nigh dead, xenophobic, tyrannic yet divine Emperor on their side.
    So a more cunning leader who is supposed to care about his people he's already lost once before would prove himself an excellent leader somehow by unnecessarily throwing away their lives in the scores? Instead of devising plans that have his forces suffering minimum loss and the enemy decimated? He hates his enemies with a passion, but unlike Garrosh he focuses his hatred. He hates Garrosh and all those who stand in his way of killing Garrosh. He isn't looking for orc genocide. Without his son around to keep him in check he would have killed Moira in an instant. He's always been the type of guy to run in and kill the enemies commanding his soldiers from the front lines even before the comic events.

    Also you make it sound like they just swept through in the troll wars, wiping out all of the old troll empires. The troll wars had one of the old troll empires. The Amani Empire. They were beaten because the Arathi humans saw the trolls and decided to beat and recruit every strong tribe of humans they could find then pincered the bastards between the humans from the south and elves they had cornered in the north. The Gurubashi in the south end of the continent tore themselves apart.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    He is a king of SW so why he should not be called by that name? It's the name that AA gave him in his honor. Secretly vring BE into AA doesn't make him the king of AA. He would have to have other leaders from other races allow it in the end anyway. There's no point in arguing in the first place because Metzen already confirmed that Varian's position is not the king of AA.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhzMHJE3UGY&t=44m39s

    "Each of these races will say, 'You are totally our king, we will follow you everywhere.'"

    Yeah. No thanks. Oh, and I really don't want to be his squire.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    True enough, I see it as a lapse in judgement with Thrall.. merely going with a popular runt who didn't really do anything rather than apointing someone more steady handed.
    Garrosh came back as a hero for a reason. Saurfang was merely an advisor, all actions taken in Northrend are Garroshes. He is the one who commanded troops to Dragonblight and Grizzly Hills, he created an offensive to Icecrown, and so on. You can't take it away from him, he was successfull, and made enough of an impression on Thrall to make him a Warchief.

    What bothers me is: if Garrosh was a good tactican and warrior as shown in WotLK and Cata, why did he stupidly change in MoP? I mean, there were no reasons to throw him down during Cataclysm, he was leadin his people better then Thrall (he had some problems with his allies, but even Vol'Jin said he will try to mend the wounds. After all, he was the one who said "I gonna kill you because I don't like you lulz").

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhzMHJE3UGY&t=44m39s

    "Each of these races will say, 'You are totally our king, we will follow you everywhere.'"

    Yeah. No thanks. Oh, and I really don't want to be his squire.
    Metzen cleared this up in his tweet already that Varian is not king of AA. "Chris Metzen and Dave Kosak later clarified that it was about military control similar to Anduin Lothar's position as Supreme Allied Commander,[5] not about faction-wide control" This is from Wowpedia. What you linked is outdated. Dave and Chris cleared that up already. No need to argue any further.

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