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  1. #1
    Banned JhanZ's Avatar
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    Dumbing Down Rogues

    @Ghostcrawler On rogue "fun" levels.Imo theyfeel maintenancey.Keep up SnD,Rupture,Enven.Takes away the feel of the actual attacks you use
    GC's Response: Maybe Slice and Dice should only be one spec?

    Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Rogues already do not have to manage many cooldowns, unlike a Hunter. Dumbing down their main rotation is something I do not like.

    I GET IT, Slice and Dice is not a fun ability to use. Generally, I'll agree. It's extra maintenance. But my problem is they'll just dumb it down for 2 out of 3 specs and not give anything back. Blizzard has been extremely reluctant to give Rogues any new toys this expansion (PvP buffs are irrelevant, talking about PvE).

    It would be great if they could reduce it to something like only keeping up Rupture and then more on-demand damaging abilities, but how realistic is that? Blizzard doesn't seem like it would do that at all, mid-expansion.

  2. #2
    It's a very common complaint among Rogues that we have a ton of damage which is passive.

    If they make SnD spec specific, the specs without it will likely have their Bleeds, Poisons, or Specials hit significantly harder to compensate.

    My guess is that Combat would keep it, being primarily Physical damage, where the other two have prominent secondary damage dealing resources.

    That also would likely mean they'd change up some mechanics to make it not as simple to just keep up one bleed, or Envenom buff, etc.

  3. #3
    I got the feeling it was more of a long term supposition, perhaps suggesting discussions among the dev team or to gauge a bit of reaction..

    Personally, I feel sort of ok about slice and dice. I like how Envenom refreshes it as Assassination, even if conceptually it doesnt necessarily make total sense (like you could argue eviscerate did for rupture) I think they should have kept that mechanic

  4. #4
    Banned JhanZ's Avatar
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    Yup, to be honest I like how Slice and Dice is handled in Assassination. If I was a dev, I would personally keep Slice and Dice for all 3 specs, but give all 3 the Assassination mechanic where it is refreshed by Eviscerate as well. Then, I would nerf the attack speed by half and probably (instead of upping base damage on all other abilities, which would risk making Rogues too strong in PvP) I would introduce another ability to tie in to the rotation possibly as a proc, maybe a dedicated execute for the other 2, or something like that.

    Best time to implement that would be in the upcoming expansion.

  5. #5
    As allot of pl said they will not change much the mechanics in this expansion, so just wait a year until they really do it........ in new expansion, until then i just hope they will buff it up and remake survival the way it was and increase the dps

  6. #6
    I'm pretty sure whatever specs lost snd would probably get new finishers that did some else unique to the specs.

  7. #7
    Whether SnD should be spec specific, I have mixed feeling about that, but the amount of passive damage it brings sure need to be addressed.
    40% extra attack speed is just way over the top. i remember it being 25% once upon a time.
    I wouldn't mind it being brought back to this 25%, or even 20%, and compensated in active damage.
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  8. #8
    seriously, ive been advocating the limiting of SnD to one spec like forever now, and think its the only way to go if they somehow want to save Rogues. The problem of course is that increasing yellow damage on Sub and Assa to balance this out might blow PvP Burst out of proportions.

    Still, Yeah! for SnD combat only and introducing new, unique mechanics for assa and sub!

    edit: prolly, rupture should be also be made sub-only, and energy regeneration be bound to poison procs only for assa. I mean, Assa is about poisons, not bleeds...

    And before you bring up "dumbing down": Of course it is not enough to just limit abilities to certain specs. We will need new mechanics for each spec to keep the complexity up.
    Last edited by runey; 2013-01-08 at 03:32 PM.

  9. #9
    I am Murloc! Tomatketchup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runey View Post
    seriously, ive been advocating the limiting of SnD to one spec like forever now, and think its the only way to go if they somehow want to save Rogues. The problem of course is that increasing yellow damage on Sub and Assa to balance this out might blow PvP Burst out of proportions.

    Still, Yeah! for SnD combat only and introducing new, unique mechanics for assa and sub!

    edit: prolly, rupture should be also be made sub-only, and energy regeneration be bound to poison procs only for assa. I mean, Assa is about poisons, not bleeds...

    And before you bring up "dumbing down": Of course it is not enough to just limit abilities to certain specs. We will need new mechanics for each spec to keep the complexity up.
    I hate how everyone want Combat to keep SnD because they're known for their passive damage. Just remove the damned thing, or like suggested above, make it so that it's refreshed by Eviscerate or whatever damaging finisher. SnD is not fun, and I don't think anyone playing Combat finds SnD a fun ability either.

    Kinda better how you give the impression that assassination and sub should have the world's most boring ability removed and get new super fun stuff, whereas combat can keep it and get nothing else. I would prefer if Combat wasn't treated like the ignored whiney grampa you put in the SnD Retirement Home.
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  10. #10
    While I'm also opposed to this, I don't think it would "dumb down" the class. Keeping slice up optimally is only interesting for combat and sub anyway, and maybe mutilate if you are running aoe and keeping it up- and only barely for combat, because you don't often get to refresh in a weaker insight.

    I mostly like the move because it's powerful and gives rogues something that they are best at. It also shows up in strange places- a buff will go out that is like "I do damage when you swing, at X PPM!" and then slice and dice is like "....aaaaand 40% better!". Those situations are rare, but it feels nice to actually be good at them, better than the other classes.


    Anyway, for an example of a rotation without a slice and dice equivalent, please check out arms, fury, frostknight, and unholy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 04:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    I hate how everyone want Combat to keep SnD because they're known for their passive damage.
    It's not about "passive damage". Autoattacks are a resource you manage, like mana. I don't know why so many rogues just wave that away.

    I don't think anyone playing Combat finds SnD a fun ability either.
    I find it fun in all specs, but less so in mutilate. When I find myself having to refresh slice suboptimally or hard cast it, I know I'm not really balanced around doing that, and it was just a way the fight worked out. I know I'm expected to spend energy and globals on it as combat and sub, so being able to line up the next one to be refreshed in like blank or yellow is nice- it means I've gained. I don't always focus on that, but it's nice to strive towards it at least. As sub, refreshing finishers correctly did get kind of cheesey-easy with the logic that "if you refresh in the last second or two, that duration gets stacked forward", but other classes had it going for awhile so I guess it was inevitable that it would hit us eventually.
    Last edited by Verain; 2013-01-08 at 04:55 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    I hate how everyone want Combat to keep SnD because they're known for their passive damage. Just remove the damned thing, or like suggested above, make it so that it's refreshed by Eviscerate or whatever damaging finisher. SnD is not fun, and I don't think anyone playing Combat finds SnD a fun ability either.

    Kinda better how you give the impression that assassination and sub should have the world's most boring ability removed and get new super fun stuff, whereas combat can keep it and get nothing else. I would prefer if Combat wasn't treated like the ignored whiney grampa you put in the SnD Retirement Home.
    Honestly, i didnt want to give the impression that SnD is a bad mechanic, each for his own on that one i guess. But i _do_ think that having SnD as a mechanic on all 3 rogue specs is just bad design.

    My reason for having SnD stay with combat is simply that combat for me has always been the swachbuckly kind of spec which relies on a lot of attacks - and furthermore, as Verain pointed out, autoattacks are some kind of ressource for combat with the additional energy regen etc.
    Also i think it would not be too bad to at least have one spec remaining which simply does rely lot on passive damage - but they should work on SS spam

  12. #12
    I am Murloc! Tomatketchup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runey View Post
    Honestly, i didnt want to give the impression that SnD is a bad mechanic, each for his own on that one i guess. But i _do_ think that having SnD as a mechanic on all 3 rogue specs is just bad design.

    My reason for having SnD stay with combat is simply that combat for me has always been the swachbuckly kind of spec which relies on a lot of attacks - and furthermore, as Verain pointed out, autoattacks are some kind of ressource for combat with the additional energy regen etc.
    Also i think it would not be too bad to at least have one spec remaining which simply does rely lot on passive damage - but they should work on SS spam
    But passive damage isn't fun, at least not in this form. Could be pretty interesting to have a spec that relies more on buffs (finisher that works like a sharpening stone buff? Sure!), but it would really have to be worked on to make sure it doesn't get too one-sided.
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  13. #13
    Brewmaster OneSent's Avatar
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    If any changes were to be made to the class, I really like Chult's idea:
    Quote Originally Posted by Chult View Post
    It's a very common complaint among Rogues that we have a ton of damage which is passive.

    If they make SnD spec specific, the specs without it will likely have their Bleeds, Poisons, or Specials hit significantly harder to compensate.

    My guess is that Combat would keep it, being primarily Physical damage, where the other two have prominent secondary damage dealing resources.

    That also would likely mean they'd change up some mechanics to make it not as simple to just keep up one bleed, or Envenom buff, etc.
    I think a change like that would add a little variety and uniqueness to all 3 specs without doing too much damage to the overall feeling of playing a rogue.

    I've always said that they did an amazing job with Death Knights when they first launched in Wrath because all 3 specs were damage-capable, but each one felt unique and different from the others based on how they did damage.

    But given what Blizzard has done to DKs in Cata and now Warriors in MoP, I have to say I'm not to keen on seeing them change us into another proc-happy, button-mashing brute who has to juggle several cooldowns. Rogues have always been a class of "finesse" and I would hate to see them ruin that.
    Last edited by OneSent; 2013-01-08 at 07:58 PM.
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  14. #14
    To me SnD should have a one minute cooldown to be used during burst phases.
    That could give some interest to this lame ability...
    "So long! And thanks for all the fish!"

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Motocarota View Post
    To me SnD should have a one minute cooldown to be used during burst phases.
    That could give some interest to this lame ability...
    That would the the old blade flurry without the cleave

  16. #16
    Well you know the initial answers gc gave '' you're fine, just get the gear, stack billion haste and its ok np'', after billion rogues complained non stop after reaching lvl 90 and clearly getting it direct we got butchered in silence, it took 4 months so they remade the talent tree, and exactly they will not change mid - expansion the rotations, and other things. Still atleast we got something.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by sneakyfk View Post
    Still atleast we got something.
    Not enough for me, sub expiring tomorrow, not resubbing...

  18. #18
    SND as Combat and Assassination only (with Envenom refreshing Assassination), Rupture as Assassination and Subtlety only, and Eviscerate as Subtlety and Combat only. Now THAT would be fun.

    Honestly, of the 3 specs, Assassination is the one that needs the least change. Regardless of what the haters say, I enjoy (both psychologically and numbers-wise) the wait time, the ramp-up, and fitting as many moves as possible into a 6 second Envenom window.
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  19. #19
    Yeah, Assassination is kinda ok really. Sometimes I feel it lacks a decent 2nd cooldown, (shadowblades feels a BIT underwhelming to me, as Assass).

    A re-worked coldblood or dispatches being able to proc free dispatches would liven it up nicely imo.

  20. #20
    Field Marshal Delighted's Avatar
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    If you ever played sub pvp, you get real fucking tired on keeping shit like that up.

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