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  1. #101
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    So you didn't even read the posts. He had the laptop hidden in a closet. He wasn't going mission impossible breaking into university data storage rooms.
    So how did he access the data in a closet? It was a restricted computer wiring closet, not just some random closet as you seem to imply. He didn't have access to it, wasn't supposed to be in there, and wasn't authorized to do anything in the closet. That is breaking into it, using exaggerations doesn't make it any less of a reality. Nor does it make what I am saying any less true, but continue to over exaggerate what I'm saying.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/60362456/A...rtz-indictment

    But if you actually read the legal documents you found that it was much more then you are making it out to be and a little "mission impossible". He purchased a new lap top just for this, created a fake registration, with a fake e-mail for mailinator. His IP was blocked on the network so he changed his to get around it. He also agreed that violation of the rules for "guest accounts" could lead to state and federal prosecution. He then spoofed his MAC address to get around that and eventually used a second computer.

    So using a laptop hidden in a closest doesn't accurately describe what he did. The question I have for you is did you actually read the facts of the case, or just the internet bandwagon?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 02:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    You using his credit card does result in him losing something. His money obviously. 1000-50=950
    Credit isn't money. You don't lose anything when you use a credit card because that is the point of credit. You are confusing a credit card with a debit card. With a debit card the charge is deducted directly from your account. With a credit card you are given "virutal money" based on the terms of the company you signed up with. You don't lose money until your bill is due and you have to pay it.

    With the exception of currency you can't really steal anything digital. At best you can make a copy and then delete the original. But even then that's not really theft but more copying and destruction.
    There is no mention of something needing to be physical in the definition of theft. Taking something digital that doesn't belong to you and you aren't authorized to have is theft. You can more easily steal digital things then physical because it is far easier to make a copy then of a physical good.

    If I torrent a movie, anyone else can go and torrent the movie as well because I didn't take 1 of a limited supply. The supply is effectively infinite.
    There is no mention of limited supply in the definition of theft. Effectively infinite still implies it is limited and thus according to your own words it is theft.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Good to know that you can classify a website that you don't seem to know a whole lot about as being composed of 'introvert bloggers and children'.

    For the record, Reddit's main demographic is males in their mid twenties to thirties who are college-educated, but I guess they're all just introverted bloggers and children.
    For the record, you don't know how to read an excel spreadsheet survey.

    Most are between 18-24, single/forever alone (yes that's actually what they call themselves) males.

    Weird. Young people and introverts. Who would've ever guessed that before reading a 35,000 person survey.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 07:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Again, stealing requires somebody be deprived of something while you gain that something.
    The RIAA would like to have a word with you.

  3. #103
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Again, stealing requires somebody be deprived of something while you gain that something.
    Stealing restricted documents and releasing them to everyone is taking and depriving. However stealing doesn't requiring taking and depriving. It requires taking of something that isn't yours. But I guess when I dispute and prove your logic wrong I'm just talking in circles and making false claims.

    I didn't deprive you of your credit card information when I took it and used it. I didn't deprive you of money because it is only credit (don't confuse credit with debit). But it is still considered theft and I'm sure you would report your card as stolen to your credit card company when you disputed the charges. Again the double standard. When it effects you personally its a crime, but when it doesn't its not.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #104
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Credit isn't money. You don't lose anything when you use a credit card because that is the point of credit. You are confusing a credit card with a debit card. With a debit card the charge is deducted directly from your account. With a credit card you are given "virutal money" based on the terms of the company you signed up with. You don't lose money until your bill is due and you have to pay it.
    The moment you use a credit card, you are in debt and a contract that you had already made previous to the credit card company makes this hold.
    The trust that you entered then legally holds you liable to all costs that is ensued by the credit card / account that is being used. If cash compensation is not used, other assets may be liquidated for the sole purposes of repaying the debt on the terms of the contract or agreement.

    In essence they are losing their money because of this.

  5. #105
    I mean the universities didn't want to charge him. Yet the government was hell bent on putting a 26 year old guy in prison for what was it 30+ years?

    Why don't they focus on the real scum of society instead? Fucking awful. Free country my ass.

  6. #106
    Scarab Lord Zka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howdyho View Post
    I'd like to point out that Steve Jobs didn't commit suicide.
    Well, he kind of did. See wikipedia:

    Despite his diagnosis, Jobs resisted his doctors' recommendations for mainstream medical intervention for nine months, instead consuming a special alternative medicine diet in an attempt to thwart the disease. According to Harvard researcher Ramzi Amri, his choice of alternative treatment "led to an unnecessarily early death." According to Jobs's biographer, Walter Isaacson, "for nine months he refused to undergo surgery for his pancreatic cancer – a decision he later regretted as his health declined." "Instead, he tried a vegan diet, acupuncture, herbal remedies and other treatments he found online, and even consulted a psychic. He also was influenced by a doctor who ran a clinic that advised juice fasts, bowel cleansings and other unproven approaches, before finally having surgery in July 2004."

    Retired raider coming back for WoD.
    WoD BETA CLUB

  7. #107
    Banned This name sucks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    spoof
    You'd need to be a special kind of idiot not to spoof your mac/ip addressess. Not sure why you'd bring that up.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    I mean the universities didn't want to charge him. Yet the government was hell bent on putting a 26 year old guy in prison for what was it 30+ years?

    Why don't they focus on the real scum of society instead? Fucking awful. Free country my ass.
    They offered him 6 months

  9. #109
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    The moment you use a credit card, you are in debt and a contract that you had already made previous to the credit card company makes this hold.
    The trust that you entered then legally holds you liable to all costs that is ensued by the credit card / account that is being used. If cash compensation is not used, other assets may be liquidated for the sole purposes of repaying the debt on the terms of the contract or agreement.

    In essence they are losing their money because of this.
    They don't lose money until they have to pay the bill. It is still just a digital debt with nothing lost yet. Nothing is lost until the credit holder comes to collect the debt. Hence why you can be given a credit limit (and credit) while having no money. You aren't required to exchange money until the debt is collected at which point you lose money.

    A debit card collects right away, a credit card does not.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #110
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They don't lose money until they have to pay the bill. It is still just a digital debt with nothing lost yet. Nothing is lost until the credit holder comes to collect the debt. Hence why you can be given a credit limit (and credit) while having no money. You aren't required to exchange money until the debt is collected at which point you lose money.

    A debit card collects right away, a credit card does not.
    The bill is inevitable. They still lose money.

  11. #111
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    I mean the universities didn't want to charge him. Yet the government was hell bent on putting a 26 year old guy in prison for what was it 30+ years?
    JSTAR didn't want to charge him. MIT did and were pursuing a civil suit against him. The federal government also filed charges against him on the basis of his crime which wasn't a crime that requires someone to press charges.

    He was offered a plea deal of 6 months in prison. He refused and want to take it to trial where he could potentially get up to 35 years for all 13 of his counts. In reality you often don't get the full sentence and you often don't get found guilty on all counts. He could of ended up with probation and a slap on the wrist.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2013-01-16 at 07:23 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #112
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovecrafts View Post
    When the going got tough, he took the coward's way out.
    He liked the attention, that's about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovecrafts View Post
    You forgot the sniveling coward part.
    Wow, so judgemental. It's sad that people STILL don't realize the attitude you're sporting here leads to more suicides.

  13. #113
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    The bill is inevitable. They still lose money.
    Then how can I use a credit card when I have 0 money? You can't lose what you don't have yet you can still accrue credit. You are confusing debit card with a credit card. It is inevitable that they lose money with a fraudulent charge, because there exists a concept of charge reversal.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 02:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    You'd need to be a special kind of idiot not to spoof your mac/ip addressess. Not sure why you'd bring that up.
    To show that it was much more then hiding a laptop in a closet, and was closer to "mission impossible" then you were trying to claim. However you just called your hero a special kind of idiot, because he didn't originally spoof his mac and IP address but only did so after he was blocked by MIT twice. Why do you need to insult someone you are idolizing?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by LiiLoSNK View Post
    For the record, you don't know how to read an excel spreadsheet survey.

    Most are between 18-24, single/forever alone (yes that's actually what they call themselves) males.

    Weird. Young people and introverts. Who would've ever guessed that before reading a 35,000 person survey.
    Pretty sure I'm not misreading an exact quote that says "According to Google DoubleClick Ad Planner's estimate, the median U.S. Reddit user is male (72%), 25–34 years of age, and has a college education. The analysis also shows that many of the top ten audience interests are in the tech field, suggesting a computer savvy demographic"

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  15. #115
    Sadly, to those who say he deserved prison, your view is ignorant. Hell, if u were born 50 years ago, you would probably say rosa parks deserved to go to jail. Noone makes history doing it quietly, what he did was courageous and I hope history will uphold this small town hero.

  16. #116
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailerist View Post
    Sadly, to those who say he deserved prison, your view is ignorant. Hell, if u were born 50 years ago, you would probably say rosa parks deserved to go to jail. Noone makes history doing it quietly, what he did was courageous and I hope history will uphold this small town hero.
    I think comparing what he was attempting to do to what Rosa parks did is the real ignorance. Rosa parks didn't steal and she violated an unethical and unjust law. Its not like he used a PC on an all apple network.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Pretty sure I'm not misreading an exact quote that says "According to Google DoubleClick Ad Planner's estimate, the median U.S. Reddit user is male (72%), 25–34 years of age, and has a college education. The analysis also shows that many of the top ten audience interests are in the tech field, suggesting a computer savvy demographic"
    I guess I'm glad I went with actual statistics from reddit rather than an unrelated companie's "estimate".

    You should really check your sources before posting. It will make your information more credible.

  18. #118
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Then how can I use a credit card when I have 0 money? You can't lose what you don't have yet you can still accrue credit. You are confusing debit card with a credit card. It is inevitable that they lose money with a fraudulent charge, because there exists a concept of charge reversal.
    No. I'm not. Did you know that some banks do something called an Overdraft? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overdraft
    The credit company that gives out the loans have no knowledge of the issuer's cash amount. This is fact.

    Debt liquidation is a bad thing to resort to, but sometimes is necessary. In this case you're driving someone else into debt and poverty due to your logic. They are still losing money.
    If the creditor does not receive the money, then they lose the money. If it's not the owner that loses it, then it's the creditor. This isn't just a one side deal.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Botter View Post
    To be honest. I thought this would be about Al Gore when I first saw the title. And to be fair Adam didn't invent the internet or a modern version or whatever you call it. Greatly changing how something works is not inventing, but that doesn't mean he was not a genius.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 07:20 PM ----------



    So you are saying he should not have been prepared to face the consequences for what he did? No matter how justifiable his actions were, he still broke the law. Just like if I choose to smoke weed, I know I run the risk of getting into trouble by the law. Also the NFL example is just stupid. Laws they haven't enforced pretty much at all in years is just not a good comparison.
    Another example would be us here who are copyrighting all these images. Your signature for example. Are you mentally prepared to drop that soap for 35 years? I know I'm not. I'm won't worry about until they are on my ass

  20. #120
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    No. I'm not. Did you know that some banks do something called an Overdraft? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overdraft
    That is for a bank account, and not a credit card. However you can be charged an additional fee for going over your credit limit in some rare cases. But most companies just decline your card when you reach your credit limit. You still don't lose any money until you have to pay for your credit. It is all digital until that point and you owe a physical good (money).

    Credit is a virtual good. You are still confusing a debit card with a credit card. A debit card you lose money with each transaction because it automatically draws from your account. You can get charged an over draft fee because it isn't a line of credit and is a physical good. Credit is a virtual good and nothing is lost until the credit holder requires you to repay your debt.

    Having a credit card with 1500 dollars and charging up to that limit doesn't subtract any money from your personage. You will owe that money but you don't lose any money. This is why you can go into debt from a credit card because you can spend more then you actually have. If you lose money for every transaction you can never spend more then you actually have.

    Debt liquidation is a bad thing to resort to, but sometimes is necessary. In this case you're driving someone else into debt and poverty due to your logic. They are still losing money.
    If the creditor does not receive the money, then they lose the money. If it's not the owner that loses it, then it's the creditor. This isn't just a one side deal.
    Credit is virtual and isn't actual negative to your money until you pay it. Just because you make a charge to your card doesn't mean you have to pay it right away. Eventually you will lose money but a simple charge doesn't lose you money. However you illustrate the point perfectly. Wouldn't release documents that are normally charged for drive someone else into debt and poverty?

    This is why it is still stealing to take virtual goods that are not yours. Just as it is stealing to take virtual credit. Eventually someone loses something with virtual goods.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2013-01-16 at 07:47 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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