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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    it still won't be enough... on top of that the set bonuses for SV are just flat superior. Marks needs more then just that pretend buff to Aimed shot.

    you still won't want to hard cast it unless it is 1sec or less... they aso need it to far harder then it does.



    thi also does NOTHING to deal with th e"bloat" they said they were going to fix and have done fuck all about.

    Only BM is properly bloated, and that's only really for the opener.

  2. #22
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    I'm fine with the actual amount of skills we have, but Readiness is the only problem. It should be turned into a defensive CD-Reset. Such as Traps, Deterrance, Disengage, Scatter Shot and Master's Call.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    ...what?
    How in the world are you even getting to this conclusion?

    It's a minor fix for a 'broken' spec, they are tweaking things so all specs are completely viable. That has always been their goal although not always possible. What does ''FotM'' have to do with that? That aside we play a Hunter. We don't play a Beast Mastery Hunter, or a Survival Hunter. We simply play what currently helps our group out the most whether that's damage or utility. That doesn't mean that the current top spec is suddenly a FotM spec. It simply means that that spec is currently outperforming the others. They don't look at their statistics and say ''Alright BM has been the top spec for a while now, let's make a different spec the top spec now''.
    Correct. So far, that has been BM and SV. To me, all this change does, is change the position of the specs on the ladder. Not add something to MM that makes it more 'useful'. Isn't that essentially establishing a new FotM? People picked BM because other people told them it was better dps. Not because they experimented with MM and found themselves doing worse. Word will spread, threads will pop up cheering and decrying the move and everyone will shift to MM en-masse for single target dps. Assuming that it does indeed deliver on that.

    Let's assume that whatever's broken with MM is fixed. But it is still below both BM and SV on the DPS ladder. Do you believe people will switch? Better yet, do you believe the designers will be satisfied?
    Last edited by gulder; 2013-01-15 at 01:20 PM.

  4. #24
    I changed cast time in simcraft to 2.5 and it either shows simcraft is broken or that this change won't do a thing with current gear levels.

    Took an average MM profile from someone http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%BCff/advanced
    3x 50000 iterations / low / 450 / 20% / patchwerk / raidboss / humanoid / 1 / disabled / elite / all buffs&debuffs

    Simcraft with default action list 2.9 cast: 97231.5 97182.6 97198.7
    Simcraft with default action list 2.5 cast: 97181.5 97233.0 97229.9

    actions+=/aimed_shot,if=target.health_pct>=80
    Simcraft with above action added below kill shot 2.9 cast: 97392.6 97388.3 97365.5
    Simcraft with above action added below kill shot 2.5 cast: 97401.9 97378.2 97412.5

    actions+=/aimed_shot,if=focus>=90|(focus>=73&(cooldown.chimera_shot.remains>=action.aimed_shot.cast_ time))&(!buff.rapid_fire.up&!buff.bloodlust.react)
    Simcraft with custom carefull aim added and arcane shot action replaced with above action 2.9 cast: 92298.8 92316.8 92307.7
    Simcraft with custom carefull aim added and arcane shot action replaced with above action 2.5 cast: 92313.0 92284.2 92302.5

    Adding aimed shot during CA manually somehow increases dps. Let's hope fd can give more usefull results.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    Correct. So far, that has been BM and SV. To me, all this change does, is change the position of the specs on the ladder. Not add something to MM that makes it more 'useful'. Isn't that essentially establishing a new FotM? People picked BM because other people told them it was better dps. Not because they experimented with MM and found themselves doing worse. Word will spread, threads will pop up cheering and decrying the move and everyone will shift to MM en-masse for single target dps. Assuming that it does indeed deliver on that.

    Let's assume that whatever's broken with MM is fixed. But it is still below both BM and SV on the DPS ladder. Do you believe people will switch? Better yet, do you believe the designers will be satisfied?
    The problem is, MM is just really weird. AiS is really hard to use to not delay GT, CS, DB and aMoC/LR/BS. And without using AiS, you have the same spec as BM or SV, just that your Focus generators hits for way less and your Signature ability has a 50% longer CD.

  6. #26
    High Overlord House's Avatar
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    here it is some MM ownage
    after watching this yesterday i am gonna try MM again
    _______________________
    mm need AS Buff
    power shot bug fix
    CS buff
    and something unique like BW
    and extra cc
    haha i live in dream world
    Last edited by House; 2013-01-15 at 01:37 PM. Reason: forgot CS :(

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    The problem is, MM is just really weird. AiS is really hard to use to not delay GT, CS, DB and aMoC/LR/BS. And without using AiS, you have the same spec as BM or SV, just that your Focus generators hits for way less and your Signature ability has a 50% longer CD.
    I see. So you're saying they're trying to make the spec playable rather than OP. If that's the case and it already sims close to the other specs, a straight damage buff is not the way to go imo. It has the potential to make it both inelegant and the spec that everyone tries to force themselves to play because it 'can' do more dps.

  8. #28
    Legendary! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Wow that came out of nowhere. I feel the sudden urge to dust off my hunter and consider raiding with him again.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    I changed cast time in simcraft to 2.5 and it either shows simcraft is broken or that this change won't do a thing with current gear levels.

    Took an average MM profile from someone http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%BCff/advanced
    3x 50000 iterations / low / 450 / 20% / patchwerk / raidboss / humanoid / 1 / disabled / elite / all buffs&debuffs

    Simcraft with default action list 2.9 cast: 97231.5 97182.6 97198.7
    Simcraft with default action list 2.5 cast: 97181.5 97233.0 97229.9


    Simcraft with above action added below kill shot 2.9 cast: 97392.6 97388.3 97365.5
    Simcraft with above action added below kill shot 2.5 cast: 97401.9 97378.2 97412.5


    Simcraft with custom carefull aim added and arcane shot action replaced with above action 2.9 cast: 92298.8 92316.8 92307.7
    Simcraft with custom carefull aim added and arcane shot action replaced with above action 2.5 cast: 92313.0 92284.2 92302.5

    Adding aimed shot during CA manually somehow increases dps. Let's hope fd can give more usefull results.
    It must not be working then, because it most definitely will do something. You don't need simcraft to know that reducing the cast time by .4 seconds will let you get off more Aimed Shots during rapid fire and any haste bonus. Using my haste, rf and steady focus, that puts the cast time at 1.44 seconds and 1.04 seconds. The latter being the hotfixed version. With a 1.04 second cast time with RF I'd get 4 more aimed shots with basically 100% crit rating during CA is not negligible.

    Buffed with only 4% stats and 500 agi flask and a 517 weapon my aimed shot is critting for ~150k. That is 600k more damage. An average fight lasts slightly over 5 minutes, so with a 5 minute duration that would be quite a big boost in dps. 600k damage over a 5 minute time period would equate to 2000 dps. Now considering your results were about even every time and somehow the 2.9 second cast time beat the 2.5 second cast time, I can say simcraft can't currently sim it as this is a reliable dps increase. Another RF would result in about 450k with decent crit levels which would be a 1500 dps increase alone. During hero that would put it at a 1.1398 second cast time rather than 1.5398 seconds. I'd get 9 more AiS which is 975k damage with decent crit levels. In a 5 minute fight that would equate to 3250 dps. So a 6750 dps increase just from that change (without using AiS at all during the fight, I'm 100% positive it would be better than an arcane shot, but just for demonstration purposes)

    *rough napkin math

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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    I see. So you're saying they're trying to make the spec playable rather than OP. If that's the case and it already sims close to the other specs, a straight damage buff is not the way to go imo. It has the potential to make it both inelegant and the spec that everyone tries to force themselves to play because it 'can' do more dps.
    Sims is the key word.

    Right now MM is STILL way worse then SV and BM, and pretty much behind all dps specs in WoW. The rotation is interesting and demanding practice - but doesn't reward you with proper dps. And simming out is a pretty weak tactic to check the state of a spec, which I do on regular basis, hoping that my favourite spec will stop sucking. The resoult is simple - MM does less damage then both SV and BM on target dummy, therefore never leaving Carefull Aim phase, criting with every Steady/Aimed.

    Shortening the Aimed Shot cast is simply for the sake of CA phase, since Aimed Shot still won't be viable as a regular focus burner, at least not yet. MM needs straightforward damage increase to keep up with SV/BM.

    And btw, posting PvP videos here is nice, but we are kinda discussing PvE mostly, as far as I'm concerned.

  11. #31
    Blizzard don't buff MM
    Omg blizzard why do you ignore MM

    Blizzard buffs MM
    Omg blizzard why didn't you just add a flat damage increase


    This is a good change. MM isn't that far behind anyway. If AiS is hardcastable 100% of the time this will also remove button bloat for MM (technically you'll still use AS rarely).

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    It must not be working then, because it most definitely will do something. You don't need simcraft to know that reducing the cast time by .4 seconds will let you get off more Aimed Shots during rapid fire and any haste bonus. Using my haste, rf and steady focus, that puts the cast time at 1.44 seconds and 1.04 seconds. The latter being the hotfixed version. With a 1.04 second cast time with RF I'd get 4 more aimed shots with basically 100% crit rating during CA is not negligible.

    Buffed with only 4% stats and 500 agi flask and a 517 weapon my aimed shot is critting for ~150k. That is 600k more damage. An average fight lasts slightly over 5 minutes, so with a 5 minute duration that would be quite a big boost in dps. 600k damage over a 5 minute time period would equate to 2000 dps. Now considering your results were about even every time and somehow the 2.9 second cast time beat the 2.5 second cast time, I can say simcraft can't currently sim it as this is a reliable dps increase. Another RF would result in about 450k with decent crit levels which would be a 1500 dps increase alone. During hero that would put it at a 1.1398 second cast time rather than 1.5398 seconds. I'd get 9 more AiS which is 975k damage with decent crit levels. In a 5 minute fight that would equate to 3250 dps. So a 6750 dps increase just from that change (without using AiS at all during the fight, I'm 100% positive it would be better than an arcane shot, but just for demonstration purposes)

    *rough napkin math
    aim shot crits for 150k... kill command does that easy... and no cast time. Marks will still be behind. Marks needs a rebuild at this point.

    Its like the saying goes, you cannot polish a turd.

  13. #33
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    I changed cast time in simcraft to 2.5 and it either shows simcraft is broken or that this change won't do a thing with current gear levels.

    Took an average MM profile from someone http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%BCff/advanced
    3x 50000 iterations / low / 450 / 20% / patchwerk / raidboss / humanoid / 1 / disabled / elite / all buffs&debuffs

    Simcraft with default action list 2.9 cast: 97231.5 97182.6 97198.7
    Simcraft with default action list 2.5 cast: 97181.5 97233.0 97229.9


    Simcraft with above action added below kill shot 2.9 cast: 97392.6 97388.3 97365.5
    Simcraft with above action added below kill shot 2.5 cast: 97401.9 97378.2 97412.5


    Simcraft with custom carefull aim added and arcane shot action replaced with above action 2.9 cast: 92298.8 92316.8 92307.7
    Simcraft with custom carefull aim added and arcane shot action replaced with above action 2.5 cast: 92313.0 92284.2 92302.5

    Adding aimed shot during CA manually somehow increases dps. Let's hope fd can give more usefull results.
    Most likely the simulator is doing what it thinks is the best rotation, which is not using AiS outside of dynamic haste effects or CA (which is the current theory). Which means you'll only see more aimed shots (maybe) during those times. The rest of the time it will still be using AS as its dump. Double check the sim to see if that's right.

    If the sims begin to show that AiS should now be the focus dump, then Blizzard will eventually undo this change; they have said in the past that they want AS to be the focus dump for MM and not AiS. It will also make one of the talents (TotH) next to useless for MM. I for one do not want to see AiS be the focus dump outside of those haste phases.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    Most likely the simulator is doing what it thinks is the best rotation, which is not using AiS outside of dynamic haste effects or CA (which is the current theory). Which means you'll only see more aimed shots (maybe) during those times. The rest of the time it will still be using AS as its dump. Double check the sim to see if that's right.

    If the sims begin to show that AiS should now be the focus dump, then Blizzard will eventually undo this change; they have said in the past that they want AS to be the focus dump for MM and not AiS. It will also make one of the talents (TotH) next to useless for MM. I for one do not want to see AiS be the focus dump outside of those haste phases.
    and with that mentality Marks will always be lack luster.

  15. #35
    Everytime I see a MM change I think back to the glory days of wotlk with 100% armor pen and instant aimed. T_T

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    aim shot crits for 150k... kill command does that easy... and no cast time. Marks will still be behind. Marks needs a rebuild at this point.

    Its like the saying goes, you cannot polish a turd.
    Yep. Kill Command is 6 sec CD and hits(and crits) for more. They should entirely rebuild MM, SV is good currently, and so is BM. MM is still really messed up, has been ever since they introduced the AiS cast time.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    Most likely the simulator is doing what it thinks is the best rotation, which is not using AiS outside of dynamic haste effects or CA (which is the current theory). Which means you'll only see more aimed shots (maybe) during those times. The rest of the time it will still be using AS as its dump. Double check the sim to see if that's right.

    If the sims begin to show that AiS should now be the focus dump, then Blizzard will eventually undo this change; they have said in the past that they want AS to be the focus dump for MM and not AiS. It will also make one of the talents (TotH) next to useless for MM. I for one do not want to see AiS be the focus dump outside of those haste phases.
    They might have to buff AS then (or revert the change which would be bad), because my aimed shot is hitting for more than double what my arcane shot hits for and critting for more than double. With the change you can easily drop below a 2 second cast time. It is 1.79 seconds (1.61 seconds with) without the 4 piece for me. Definitely way more efficient than arcane shotting. The 10 extra focus compared to two arcane shots is worth it because it does more damage in a smaller execute time. The 10 focus just evens the damage per focus. Buffed with 4% stats and a 500 agi flask I'm getting 30k arcane shots with 20 focus vs 75k AiS with a 50 focus cost, 1500 dpf. double that and it is 3000 dpf each if you crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Yep. Kill Command is 6 sec CD and hits(and crits) for more. They should entirely rebuild MM, SV is good currently, and so is BM. MM is still really messed up, has been ever since they introduced the AiS cast time.
    Maybe with procs up, but according to my logs my KC is about the same as my unbuffed AiS.

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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Yep. Kill Command is 6 sec CD and hits(and crits) for more. They should entirely rebuild MM, SV is good currently, and so is BM. MM is still really messed up, has been ever since they introduced the AiS cast time.
    its not the cast time that messed up marksman. Its that aimed shot is not worth casting because it doesn't do enough damage to be worth it outside of an instant. If Aimed shot hit like powershot (when it lands) then it would be worth casting, but as it sits its not better then 2 arcane shots... Marks needs a compelte rebuild and turned into a petless spec... Blizz has done nothing but show up they ignore pets when they build raid content yet hunters ar the only class forced to deal with all the disadvantages that come with pets.... Warlocks complained they had to deal with retarded pets that hindered them so they let one spec get rid of the pet, yet they refuse to do it with hunters.


    Blizzard has lost touch with their own classes. The current balance shows they are not looking at what the players what and what the players are doing.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    its not the cast time that messed up marksman. Its that aimed shot is not worth casting because it doesn't do enough damage to be worth it outside of an instant. If Aimed shot hit like powershot (when it lands) then it would be worth casting, but as it sits its not better then 2 arcane shots... Marks needs a compelte rebuild and turned into a petless spec... Blizz has done nothing but show up they ignore pets when they build raid content yet hunters ar the only class forced to deal with all the disadvantages that come with pets.... Warlocks complained they had to deal with retarded pets that hindered them so they let one spec get rid of the pet, yet they refuse to do it with hunters.


    Blizzard has lost touch with their own classes. The current balance shows they are not looking at what the players what and what the players are doing.
    ALL warlock specs can get rid of their pets. It's a talent in the 75tier

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    aim shot crits for 150k... kill command does that easy... and no cast time.
    You're forgetting about piercing arrows. :P

    Anyway this is indeed a nice buff to MM, considering AiS pauses your autoshot as well. Point is we'll want to use AS as much as possible in 5.2 with t15, so I don't really know where this is going...

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