1. #1

    [Brewmaster] Request for feedback

    Hey guys, wondering if you could help figure out why is our brewmaster monk tank soo spiky in some fights. Here is his armory:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...kickn/advanced

    We had issues with him getting hit like a truck when 1 tanking windlord (normal), when we switched him for a dk with less gear it was easier. He seemed very spiky compared to our other tanks. Here are some logs from that fight:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=7750&e=7790
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=7928&e=8038
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=8163&e=8320

    We were also having with him on heroic bladelord (running 2 tanks obviously)... Whenever he would be tanking boss during an unseen strike he seemed to be getting hit hard right after and we were having issues keeping him alive. When we switched and had our bear tank grab boss for unseen strike it was waay smoother. Logs:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j...=10436&e=10723
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j...?s=9283&e=9480
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j...?s=8854&e=9116
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1735&e=2217 (log from our kill the next day, but he still died with an overwhelming assault of 340k)

    Could you guys please take a look at him and criticize things like gems/enchants/reforge and his uptimes of mitigiation buffs etc? Thanks a lot.
    Last edited by land; 2013-01-17 at 03:59 PM. Reason: making obvious note that we're 2 tanking HM bladelord

  2. #2
    Don't have time to analyse the logs just now, but let me say: Brewmasters are probably the worse choice for single tanking that fight you could have. I struggled taking the 2nd hit of Overwhelming Assault while 2 tanking it for a LONG time, let alone any more (not sure how the timing works out single tanking as to when the stacks drop off). The problem is we have to RELY on external cooldowns, unlike other tanks we have only Fortifying Brew to really stop the hits. Guard doesn't absorb enough half the time, and Zen Meditation is really hard to time for it.

    If he's getting the external cooldowns he needs, who knows.

  3. #3
    Just by looking at your normal logs, your monk is just trying to dps, and has little to no shuffle uptime. No shuffle=dead very quickly.

    He needs to concentrate more on defensive abilities, as opposed to trying to top the DPS meter, he's a brewmaster monk in an AoE situation, he will dominate the AoE dps either way, but this way he will actually stay alive.


    Main thing he needs, is to get his shuffle as close to 100% as possible. There is zero excuse for shuffle uptime, it's just lazy tanking.

    I have personally tanked that boss with far worse gear on my monk without much problem.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Robb View Post
    Just by looking at your normal logs, your monk is just trying to dps, and has little to no shuffle uptime. No shuffle=dead very quickly.



    Main thing he needs, is to get his shuffle as close to 100% as possible. There is zero excuse for shuffle uptime, it's just lazy tanking.

    I have personally tanked that boss with far worse gear on my monk without much problem.

    This. I see NO shuffle on the first log. Might as well be a druid in cat form swiping adds, if he doesnt have shuffle up.
    Log 2, 10% Shuffle up time. Again, BAD. Log 3, 11.4% uptime. Shuffle should be as close to 100%, ESPECIALLY if he's one tanking.

    TL;DR - NO SHUFFLE + NO ELUSIVE BREW use on Meljarak = /facepalm
    Last edited by arisoh; 2013-01-17 at 04:00 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Needonboots View Post
    Don't have time to analyse the logs just now, but let me say: Brewmasters are probably the worse choice for single tanking that fight you could have. I struggled taking the 2nd hit of Overwhelming Assault while 2 tanking it for a LONG time, let alone any more (not sure how the timing works out single tanking as to when the stacks drop off). The problem is we have to RELY on external cooldowns, unlike other tanks we have only Fortifying Brew to really stop the hits. Guard doesn't absorb enough half the time, and Zen Meditation is really hard to time for it.

    If he's getting the external cooldowns he needs, who knows.
    I can take a 3rd hit of Overwhelming Assault with a good Guard. Single tanking that fight as a monk isn't that bad imo.

  6. #6
    No expert on WoL, but his Shuffle uptime seems really, really awful.

  7. #7
    What on earth is he spending his Chi on, if not Blackout Kick? :S

    I mean, I see 60% shuffle uptime and I think 'that needs to be better', but I can understand it being that low. 10%? I just... Boggles the mind.

    Anyway. I'll be much more helpful in about 30 mins or so. About to leave the office, will be on home comp in a min.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    What on earth is he spending his Chi on, if not Blackout Kick? :S

    I mean, I see 60% shuffle uptime and I think 'that needs to be better', but I can understand it being that low. 10%? I just... Boggles the mind.

    Anyway. I'll be much more helpful in about 30 mins or so. About to leave the office, will be on home comp in a min.
    In the Blade Lord Log 1 he only used Blackout Kick 6 times, Expel Harm 3 times and Breath of Fire 3 times. Why would you use Breath of Fire here? Well, ngl I've pretty much removed BoF from my bars. KS is better bang on all fronts.

  9. #9
    Great feekback guys, I was suspecting of that low time on shuffle too. BTW, can you guys keep that buff up like 80% and up for sure? It'd be awesome if someone could give me a WoL so I could show to him that...

    Also, what do u guys think about this gearing/gemming/chanting options? Is windsong really best for weap enchant?

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    1) He needs to fix his gemming and reforging. I doubt very few will disagree that the 15% expertise cap is not needed and he has to much hit. Gems are out of wack or missing. Use AMR (WW spec) it's not perfect but easiest guideline I can link to fix a lot of problems: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/u...e/kungpowkickn
    2) Haste is too low IMO. Haste is a personal choice for BrM but I try not to drop below 6k and Wind Lord is actually one of the specific reasons why. He is in the 4k range currently.

    OK, now that is out of the way honestly he seems to have no idea how to play BrM. Maybe this is a WW trying to fill in as a tank but from those log post there is actually nothing he is doing right at all. He needs to hit the tank sticky and build a Weak Aura to track our buffs and CD's. His key buff uptimes are lower than anything I've ever seen posted.

    Look at Shuffle, Guard, and Tiger Power buff uptimes, until those are in the 80's or 90's I wouldn't use a monk. When played right BrM are amazing here is my last kill with basically the same gear, hit # 26 for 25m kills and felt like I could have played better even... http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-75...?s=2168&e=2572

    H Blade Lord is a terrible jerk about a lot of things but BrM are not a weak tank for that fight. Was working on him last night in 25m and it was actually our Pally that died more to OA I think I only got killed once. The thing about that fight is usually his 2nd OA hit lines up after an Unseen Strike and he sneaks in about 2-4 melee hits (from my experience) so a BrM has to have Fort Brew or Dampen Harm with remaining stacks up or you die if not full health. DH only has 3 stacks so if you use it to early he can eat them before the OA and kill you.

    The fact you killed H Blade Lord with a monk tank sitting at 27% shuffle uptime is pretty amazing. I dunno there are so many things to fix from your links if he is interested in improving can send me a PM or in game message.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    1)

    H Blade Lord is a terrible jerk about a lot of things but BrM are not a weak tank for that fight. Was working on him last night in 25m and it was actually our Pally that died more to OA I think I only got killed once. The thing about that fight is usually his 2nd OA hit lines up after an Unseen Strike and he sneaks in about 2-4 melee hits (from my experience) so a BrM has to have Fort Brew or Dampen Harm with remaining stacks up or you die if not full health. DH only has 3 stacks so if you use it to early he can eat them before the OA and kill you.
    I don't get this part. There is zero reason in Heroic to take 2 Assaults. Tank 1 starts, gets OA, tank 2 waits like 10 secs then taunts (first tank veangeance dmg), tank 2 gets OA, tank 1 waits till 10 secs or so left remaining of debuff then taunts, debuff falls off, tank 1 gets OA. Rinse repeat.

    To OP: I posted out this reply and then it double posted when I added in a second quote, so I removed the quote, but it removed both posts, so said screw it. My 1st post was better, but I am frustrated now.

    He is bad, end of story. Replace him or send him our way, but until he fixes it, I would put him on the bench.

    I ran a quick compare of myself and him: http://raidbots.com/comparebot/50f82...000281#summary

    Pay attn to ability usage, buff times, etc. And I wasn't even playing my normal self as I have been fighting the flu this week.
    Last edited by gynshon; 2013-01-17 at 04:37 PM.

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  12. #12
    The Patient
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    100% agreed with everyone here. OP, just to put things into perspective if you're not familiar with BrM and Shuffle, bottom line is that it allows us to avoid 20% more initial damage AND increase our parry by 20%. 100% shuffle uptime is easily maintainable on almost every fight.

    I strongly suggest that he/she goes into the BrM WA thread, pick a layout that will help them track elusive brew stacks and duration, shuffle active and time remaining, Tiger Power/Power Guard buff, Guard uptime and CD and lastly a stagger damage tracker of some sort. There are many layouts to choose from and a lot of very useful info there. Oh, also, you can even keep track of Expel Harm, energy and KS if they want.

    Dis guy/girl is giving BrM a bad name lol.

    Edit
    Getting hit by Tempest Slash is unacceptable as well. With a possible 3 rolls and the fact that melee have it slightly easier than ranged.
    Last edited by Shinchib; 2013-01-17 at 04:51 PM.

  13. #13
    Taking a look for myself, I can only re-iterate what has already been said. The gear isn't all that bad, improvements can be made certainly, but that's not a huge deal. It's the active mitigation which is so, SO important.

    Blackout Kick for Shuffle
    Guard for shields
    Elusive Brew for dodge

    I think he might be spamming Purifying Brew, actually. Would need to do a really awkward WoL search for it, but it seems like the amount of applications of Light Stagger seems pretty high. Not sure. At any rate, PB should only be used when needed and sparingly, depending on the boss fight. It's not the primary method of reducing damage: that's Shuffle, EB, and Guard.

    So yeah. Direct him to the stickied Brewmaster guide, tell him to come here and ask questions. Tell him to read tooltips and figure out exactly how to reduce the damage he's taking. Also, give your healers a pat on the back from us. They've done really well to keep him alive.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    I ran a quick compare of myself and him: http://raidbots.com/comparebot/50f82...000281#summary
    Jesus:
    Melee Kungpowkickn 8,772,162
    Melee Genshen 2,911,988

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    Jesus:
    Melee Kungpowkickn 8,772,162
    Melee Genshen 2,911,988
    Run with 20% less parry AND 20% less stagger/block for a majority of the fight and you will see those kind of differences easy. That isn't even the sum total of what all is missing mitigation wise in this case.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by land View Post
    Great feekback guys, I was suspecting of that low time on shuffle too. BTW, can you guys keep that buff up like 80% and up for sure? It'd be awesome if someone could give me a WoL so I could show to him that...
    80% is too low already if you ask me. Just checked this week's wind lord kill and I had 91% uptime and could have done better. I remember our first kill I had like 99% uptime or something, although I did run more haste back then. Even in situations of tank swaps or downtime (like devastating combo on will), he can just keep stacking the buff since there's not much else to spend chi on apart from lvl 30 talents perhaps if he wants to help out healing a bit, though that shouldn't be needed.
    Wind lord log from this week: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...?s=9186&e=9570

  17. #17
    Thanks everyone for ur feedback.

  18. #18
    Looking at those logs makes me such a sad panda, this is why monk tanks have a pretty bad name when it comes to spikey damage.

    There is only 1 advice really, tell him to read the monk guide here on mmo. He obviously never ever read anything about brm's.

  19. #19
    Overwhelming assault, as someone said, is less of an issue on heroic than normal. You rarely need to take 2 hits, if ever. A single overwhelming assault with guard up? I don't think it even makes it through the shield. Make sure your tanks are taunting at the right time.

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