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  1. #1

    Tanking + Active Mitigation

    I have a tank (druid) and recently leveled my Holy Pally to 90. As a healer, I am bothered by the lack of active mitigation being used by tanks. Personally, I liked it a lot better when tanks could gear for avoidance/mitigation. I recently looked at a log for MSV Stone Guards. The warrior tank used Shield Block 11 times, Shield Barrier -0- times, and Heroic Strike 62 times. (They also never used Thunder Clap for the Weakened Blows debuff, nor Demo Shout.)They downed the boss, but I was amazed at the extra burden that puts on the healers. Since about 70% of the damage in that encounter is a bleed (magic damage), they should be using all their rage on Shield Barrier.

    I've looked at a number of logs and continue to see very little use of active mitigation, or the wrong one being used. Now to be honest, I didn't like the idea of all tanks going to the active mitigation model in the first place. Before AM, a good DK tank was awesome - but that was only about 5% of them. Why open that door to being bad for all tanks? I used to be able to inspect a tank and when I saw all dps/pvp gear, I knew he wasn't a "tank". Now, there's no way of telling except when you go oom trying to heal them and they still blame the healer.

    What I also find amusing is that a lot of healers that are way over-geared for 5-mans now find healing such tanks "challenging" and they enjoy it. Do they not realize they are perpetuating a bad trend? And the next healer who only has blues may likely fail and you know what the tank is going to say? He'll say, "The last healer didn't have a problem. You suck!"

    Just wondering what other tanks/healers think about Active Mitigation model for tanking? What are your experiences?

  2. #2
    Welcome to the world of Healing,

    I stood in fire and died, you didn't heal me enough. No i didn't use defensive CDs you didn't heal me enough.

    The advantage AM is that it seperates the good from the bad. A good tank is good and a bad tank is bad. Simple as that, I am glad they are putting some of the onus on the player rather than the gear. Previously a tank in very good gear took very little damage, while that is still partially true a highly skilled player in the same gear as an unskilled player will now fair much better.

    PS it sounds like that warrior tank you ran with was terrible.

  3. #3
    Makes it quite a bit easier to spot the bad tanks nowadays for any progression orientated guild. Before, it used to mainly just be raid awareness, keeping up the demo shout/roar + attack speed debuffs, and popping CD at high damage phases while mindlessly spamming your rotation for the rest of the fight.

    Now, stuff like warrior/druid tanks having to spend it on the shield block/savage defense vs shield absorb/frenzied regen vs hs/cleave/maul is real useful to quickly see which ones aren't that good.

    However in your case, in easy content, tanks may feel like spending their resources on dps if healers aren't having trouble keeping up. I know I do if I'm feeling bored and want to change it up. On progression fight I obviously wouldn't, but if it's heroics or MSV first few bosses, why not.

  4. #4
    As someone who both tanks and heals (primarily heals) I think active mitigation is important and it's a good thing that there are varying skill levels of tanks. I do think there needs to be a better way (in-game) to detect or notice if a tank is performing badly and tanks need a better way to learn proper tanking techniques.

    I would say that 5-mans are too easy to teach anything and that may be a large part of the problem.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CallMeGrey View Post
    I have a tank (druid) and recently leveled my Holy Pally to 90. As a healer, I am bothered by the lack of active mitigation being used by tanks. Personally, I liked it a lot better when tanks could gear for avoidance/mitigation. I recently looked at a log for MSV Stone Guards. The warrior tank used Shield Block 11 times, Shield Barrier -0- times, and Heroic Strike 62 times. (They also never used Thunder Clap for the Weakened Blows debuff, nor Demo Shout.)They downed the boss, but I was amazed at the extra burden that puts on the healers. Since about 70% of the damage in that encounter is a bleed (magic damage), they should be using all their rage on Shield Barrier.

    I've looked at a number of logs and continue to see very little use of active mitigation, or the wrong one being used. Now to be honest, I didn't like the idea of all tanks going to the active mitigation model in the first place. Before AM, a good DK tank was awesome - but that was only about 5% of them. Why open that door to being bad for all tanks? I used to be able to inspect a tank and when I saw all dps/pvp gear, I knew he wasn't a "tank". Now, there's no way of telling except when you go oom trying to heal them and they still blame the healer.

    What I also find amusing is that a lot of healers that are way over-geared for 5-mans now find healing such tanks "challenging" and they enjoy it. Do they not realize they are perpetuating a bad trend? And the next healer who only has blues may likely fail and you know what the tank is going to say? He'll say, "The last healer didn't have a problem. You suck!"

    Just wondering what other tanks/healers think about Active Mitigation model for tanking? What are your experiences?
    The bleed isn't magic damage...
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  6. #6
    I am sometimes a bad tank.
    Depends on the fight, but when the damages on the tanks are not really dangerous, I like to spam FH, the sooner the boss dies, the sooner we can got to the next boss.
    Once you're farming some bosses, you can usually forget active mitigation and just increase your dps. Well, depends on the fight, you don't want to spam FH against Will of the Emperor for instance. But against Feng, I barely used active mitigation even during progress.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    The bleed isn't magic damage...

    Regardless, that ridiculously high dot ticking on you is not a melee attack either. Pretty sure I've never used sheild block on that fight. 100% uptime on Barrier is the way to go.

    To the OP, I really enjoy Active Mitigation. I was extremely iffy on hard capping hit/soft capping exp (I've since hard capped both as a personal preference) but since then I can't imagine going back to pre-MoP tanking. I would much rather rely on my own skills to keep me alive as opposed to counting on a healer to do it for me.
    Last edited by nine3cubed; 2013-01-15 at 07:01 PM.

  8. #8
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    I play a tank (BrM to be exact) and I LOVE the new AM model of tanking. I enjoy that tanks have a much larger responsibility to keep up their survivability than ever before, and in the long run is good for the game. It's hard to throw almost 8 years of standing there to soak damage and mashing buttons to maintain threat out the window, but once people become more comfortable with this new method I think it'll help move the game in a good direction.

    Maybe it's a combination of factors, but I've never felt as pushed to better myself as a player as I have during MoP, and it's made me take such a close look at the class I play and look at all the tools at my disposal and how I can use them most effectively in situations that may arise during a raid/dungeon run. Something that makes people pay more attention and be more engaged in the game can only be a good thing.
    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

  9. #9

    I tank and heal also....

    Quote Originally Posted by CallMeGrey View Post
    I have a tank (druid) and recently leveled my Holy Pally to 90. As a healer, I am bothered by the lack of active mitigation being used by tanks. Personally, I liked it a lot better when tanks could gear for avoidance/mitigation. I recently looked at a log for MSV Stone Guards. The warrior tank used Shield Block 11 times, Shield Barrier -0- times, and Heroic Strike 62 times. (They also never used Thunder Clap for the Weakened Blows debuff, nor Demo Shout.)They downed the boss, but I was amazed at the extra burden that puts on the healers. Since about 70% of the damage in that encounter is a bleed (magic damage), they should be using all their rage on Shield Barrier.

    I've looked at a number of logs and continue to see very little use of active mitigation, or the wrong one being used. Now to be honest, I didn't like the idea of all tanks going to the active mitigation model in the first place. Before AM, a good DK tank was awesome - but that was only about 5% of them. Why open that door to being bad for all tanks? I used to be able to inspect a tank and when I saw all dps/pvp gear, I knew he wasn't a "tank". Now, there's no way of telling except when you go oom trying to heal them and they still blame the healer.

    What I also find amusing is that a lot of healers that are way over-geared for 5-mans now find healing such tanks "challenging" and they enjoy it. Do they not realize they are perpetuating a bad trend? And the next healer who only has blues may likely fail and you know what the tank is going to say? He'll say, "The last healer didn't have a problem. You suck!"

    Just wondering what other tanks/healers think about Active Mitigation model for tanking? What are your experiences?
    Personally I feel that I'm a better tank because I heal, and vice versa. I pally and DK tank, and actively try to keep my damage reductions up. Can't speak for other tanks and what they try to do. But as a healer I can tell when a tank doesn't use their AM spells/abilities, the become real squishy real fast.

    I really notice the squishy tanks on my Hpriest, who's ilvl JUST hit 460. I run low on mana extremely fast if the tank isn't good. On my Rsham a bad/squishy tank can survive better because I can heal thru most long/bad fights due to my gear and better Rsham class knowledge, but a bad tank is still a bad tank.

    Personally I feel that if a tank wants to be good at their job they should also heal. I'm not sure that to be a good healer you need to tank, but many tanks don't seem to understand that much of their own survival depends on their own abilities to mitigate damage. I've seen many, many tanks run around with non-tanking gear just to increase their dps. Rhetorically I wonder if they do that to keep threat up from overzealous dps who sometimes pull aggro from burst damage. But generally speaking, too many tanks try to out dps the dps and end up taking more damage than needed because they can/do not use their defensive abilities well.

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    It's called requiring good play. It's the same as DPS who don't do their job and take unnecessary damage, and die.

    If healers can heal through everything, then it would be nothing but a mana check. But that's why there's personal responsibility - someone who spikes from 100 to 0 is either A) not mitigating damage, or B) standing in shit.

    To be honest, if it's a tank who spiked like that, he probably did both.

  11. #11
    1. Active Mitigation is good, because you don't fall asleep as a tank, you have to think what you are doing.
    2. Tank should do maximum dps. Since MoP you have to balance between DPS and Survivability. And you know what? THIS IS FUCKING FUN!
    3. Bleed Damage is physical damage!
    4. Active Mitigation draws the line between bad and good tanks, best thing ever. The same stuff happend to healers at the start of MoP, most of them went OOM because "WTF I SPAMMED DAT SHIT BEFOURE AND I WAS BEST HEALER EVER".

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahu View Post
    4. Active Mitigation draws the line between bad and good tanks, best thing ever. The same stuff happend to healers at the start of MoP, most of them went OOM because "WTF I SPAMMED DAT SHIT BEFOURE AND I WAS BEST HEALER EVER".
    In my experience it is super easy for bad tanks to shrug off their badness onto healers with active mitigation.
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  13. #13
    Yes AM creates the potential for such an obviously superior tanking experience its really amazing we put up with boring pre-AM gameplay for so long. Previously, heavily geared tanks had not much to do but turn up and let their massive hit point pool do the talking.

    And yes, potential for excellence goes hand in hand with potential for being bad, but that mirrors life and maybe thats why its more compelling. AM could be even more difficult/rewarding if the learning curve would not then become too steep for beginner tanks. So as another poster said, it would help the game to have some better way of learning tanking techniques other than 'the hard way' with four angry strangers screaming abuse and kicking you.

    Imagine schoolkids learning alegbra the first time, but theres a whole lot of other kids in class yelling at them that theyre fags and losers because they dont get it immediately and perfectly? Then vote to kick them from the classroom. (same classroom later that day: OMG WTF why are there so few ppl good at algebra around)

    Also, great thread. A lot of interesting stuff, unlike 99% of these forums.

  14. #14
    If the tanks are dying or the healers are going OOM (causing the tanks to die), then using resources for active mitigation is necessary. If the tanks aren't dying there's no reason for them to use active mitigation. More dps on the boss.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by PlatedPriest View Post
    In my experience it is super easy for bad tanks to shrug off their badness onto healers with active mitigation.
    No. There were some tanks that told me that. I replied with a skada log where they took over 450k damage in 2 seconds. They quickly realise you can't heal this amount of damage in 2 seconds. Just take a look into logs. If they eat like 250k+ damage hits, they are bad.

  16. #16
    I love that we have active mitigation now, but I have tanked for years, so it makes it more interesting for me.

    But for a new tank (well the healers of) I agree it could a nightmare, because tanks now have a choice between dps or survivability, the new guys are gonna see all the big numbers and dps!! Some are never going to change and others will learn and become good tanks.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by longxia View Post
    Yes AM creates the potential for such an obviously superior tanking experience its really amazing we put up with boring pre-AM gameplay for so long. Previously, heavily geared tanks had not much to do but turn up and let their massive hit point pool do the talking.

    And yes, potential for excellence goes hand in hand with potential for being bad, but that mirrors life and maybe thats why its more compelling. AM could be even more difficult/rewarding if the learning curve would not then become too steep for beginner tanks. So as another poster said, it would help the game to have some better way of learning tanking techniques other than 'the hard way' with four angry strangers screaming abuse and kicking you.

    Imagine schoolkids learning alegbra the first time, but theres a whole lot of other kids in class yelling at them that theyre fags and losers because they dont get it immediately and perfectly? Then vote to kick them from the classroom. (same classroom later that day: OMG WTF why are there so few ppl good at algebra around)

    Also, great thread. A lot of interesting stuff, unlike 99% of these forums.
    I don't think that the new AM model is particularly punishing for new players, you could certainly steamroll heroics using the 'old tanking ways'. Like what Octaboom said before - I used to heal in vanilla and TBC and didnt' switch to main spec tanking until Wrath (I still heal btw) - I feel like I understand tanking better because I've been on the opposite end and experiencing what it's like when a tank doesn't use all their abilities to mitigate damage available to them. It allows decent players to get by, but encourages the better players to push the envelope with their spec/class to see what they are capable of.

    I think the algebra analogy works pretty well, although learning something new always takes time and effort; however, it's a completely different topic to discuss whether people are willing to put in that time and effort to learning something they know hardly anything about.

    It's the choice that makes tanking engaging and exciting.
    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    If the tanks are dying or the healers are going OOM (causing the tanks to die), then using resources for active mitigation is necessary. If the tanks aren't dying there's no reason for them to use active mitigation. More dps on the boss.
    So true, and a good tank knows this. The point the OP is making is that some tanks think that they can just dps all the time and its up to the healer to keep them up, when this is not the case.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mahu View Post
    4. Active Mitigation draws the line between bad and good tanks, best thing ever.
    This would be true if we had a dance pad and actively mitigated attacks with stepping to the left or the right.... But today? It's just gain your resource, hit your short time buff - rinse and repeat. Use your bigger cooldowns before boss mod timer yells at you and that's it. I hardly doubt that you'll have lots of "bad tanks" only spamming heroic strike and not thunderclapping beyond the first boss of the normal mode unless nobody cares to check logs and look for serious play issues. But keeping a 30 second debuff on a mob isn't a tough task and something everybody willing to raid should be capable of.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by longxia View Post
    Yes AM creates the potential for such an obviously superior tanking experience its really amazing we put up with boring pre-AM gameplay for so long. Previously, heavily geared tanks had not much to do but turn up and let their massive hit point pool do the talking.
    Actually "AM" is nothing new - it is just way of dps - get hit/exp cap and follow some rogue'ish rotation, imitate interrupts by using some defensive cds against repeatable heavy strikes with very little window to react and sometimes absolutely no indicators outside boss mods at all (like 2nd boss in HoF). With "AM" tanking completely lost it's uniqueness (preceding Cata changes "helped" greatly in this too) and got dissipated.

    When talk about "AM" started before MoP, I was expecting smth similar to Barriers system like in Allods Online, which was like mini-game in itself. What we currently have can't be really called as "AM", it is rather tunneling tanks into dps-like setup and I smell incoming homogenization of plate (with removal of dodge and parry stats altogether) if people will keep cheering the new model, and use exclusively Theck's advices on how to gear up.

    Peek into Allods Online. You might have "wake up call" on what can truly be called as "active mitigation", though the very term "active mitigation" is quite awkward.

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