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  1. #21
    I agree it is bad tanks to a point i keep my mitigation up but find the system just clunky and not fun, devs seem to like to make healing and tanking harder and harder while DPS remains fairly easy.

    Don't get me wrong i love tanking and would choose no other role, but i do think active mitigation across the board was a bad idea.

  2. #22
    Active Mitigation is the way to go. I tank and heal across a number of classes and I like where things are now. I was so sick of stacking stam.

    What I don't care for are lippy DPS who expect you to heal through their lack of desire to move. Healers should have a spell that heals targets that 1) Have Aggro and/or 2) Under 30% health. It leaves a stacking debuff that stacks up to 3 times. At 3 stacks it starts an auto kick vote with 2 votes in favor.

    Even worse when said lippy DPS is doing 1/2 the damage you are doing as a healer!

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyVoodoo View Post
    I love that we have active mitigation now, but I have tanked for years, so it makes it more interesting for me.

    But for a new tank (well the healers of) I agree it could a nightmare, because tanks now have a choice between dps or survivability, the new guys are gonna see all the big numbers and dps!! Some are never going to change and others will learn and become good tanks.
    Actually for paladins most of the time the dps choice is better for survivability than the "survivability choice".
    Seeing as the "dps" one gives us a 3sec buff that reduces damage by 45-50% (or higher if stacking mastery, trinkets or what have you) over the other choice which is just a plain heal. Sure the heal is awesome at high vengence and selfbuffs which can bring it to (and over) 600k when critting.
    Holy Avenger (gives 3 holy power instead of 1 on a medium cd) along with the wings gives us a 20ish second window with 45-50% less melee damage taken and the extra damage from wings gives us quite alot of more healing when we hit stuff.

    So atleast for paladins if you want to do more damage you hardly sacrifice any survivability to do so.

  4. #24
    I think active mitigation is fine, what i don't like is the huge boost to tank dps. It opened that door of "herp derp look how much damage I did" to non dps players, and as you said it really reflects in the logs. Instead of just having to groan about poorly timed blood shields and low uptime on bone shield, now we have to deal with every pug tank in the game trying to up their dps instead of mitigate damage /sigh

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shippai View Post
    Holy Avenger (gives 3 holy power instead of 1 on a medium cd) along with the wings gives us a 20ish second window with 45-50% less melee damage taken
    I made 54 seconds streak under heroism yesterday=)

  6. #26
    As a Deathknight, this thread: zzzzzz :P


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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    I think active mitigation is fine, what i don't like is the huge boost to tank dps. It opened that door of "herp derp look how much damage I did" to non dps players, and as you said it really reflects in the logs. Instead of just having to groan about poorly timed blood shields and low uptime on bone shield, now we have to deal with every pug tank in the game trying to up their dps instead of mitigate damage /sigh
    Tank DPS actually helps the healer by shortening the fights. Good tanks known when to use AM and when to dump resources as DPS boost, it's all about knowing the fight and good reaction time when something goes wrong.

    Achieving balance is what makes a good tank vs a bad tank. Just going full DPS or full AM is simplistic and poor play.

  8. #28
    As a tank, I was sceptical about active mitigation, but in my experience, it's made tanking more interesting. Before MoP, I thought DKs had the best tanking model - in the sense of being the most elegant and fun. Warriors may now have one of the most interesting - having to choose between barrier and block. With vengeance, the option of sacrificing some survivability for some dps is also a meaningful one. So, I think AM makes life more fun for the tank.

    As for tanks not using AM, I think part of the design intention was to allow good players to distinguish themselves from poor ones (otherwise, why play to your best?), so maybe it's working as intended? Are these logs for LFR or real progression raids? I would imagine tanks in real progression fights would use AM. I suspect most tanks in LFR are alts or offspecs, and may be rather ignorant. (I try to be informed about my main spec in guild raids, but in LFR with alts, it's more a case of learning by doing). Or it could be that they are making a conscious choice to speed up the encounter/top the logs, knowing that the encounter is undertuned and the healers should be able to cope. I would only really protest if there's a real risk of a wipe due to tank death. I'm seeing more wipes in LFR recently, but often these seem to be due to neglect of encounter mechanics rather than squishy tanks or weak healing.

  9. #29
    Most tanks in LFR don't do anything but sit there and get threat. I doubt they push any buttons -.-

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Most [people] in LFR don't do anything but sit there and get [free loot]. I doubt they push any buttons -.-
    Fixed that for you.
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  11. #31
    LFR? You guys thinking too kind about people. Look at this.
    Heroic Will of Emperor, 2 paladin tanks, healing recieved: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...&s=2885&e=3557

  12. #32
    Bloodsail Admiral Serenais's Avatar
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    Well. My few cents...
    I believe that active mitigation is in general a good idea. However, in my opinion, it overshadowed the passive mitigation way too much. Currently, as a protection paladin , I don't want "tanking stats" (meaning dodge and parry), whereas everything else besides crit is actually more benefitial (until caps where applicable, of course). This makes me feel more like a DPS with a shield than an actual tank that can take a hit. In theory, this created a situation where critless DPS gear is potentially better than tanking gear, and PvP gear might actually be also more viable.
    In my opinion, that doesn't feel right, and shouldn't stay that way. Active mitigation should be a bonus for good tanks, not "the only game in town".

  13. #33
    Honestly for me as a Paladin Tank, i love the model Blizzard has made for tanking because it makes you work alot harder for your ability to tank well.
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  14. #34
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    Considering the joke tanking was through wrath and cata, yes I think it's entirely a step in the right direction

    @person on first page confusing AM with homogenization, they are different. Homogenization happens in this game overtime and it's just something to deal with.

  15. #35
    I really like some of the changes they have made to tanking. On my monk working out the balance between keeping shuffle up 100% for the time or as close as possible, my guard and elusive brew on top of the other things you have always done while tanking is a refreshing change. There have been far to many times in past dungeons and raids that you could fall asleep at the wheel tanking and not have to worry. The worst of it being in Wrath when hunters and rogues could take care of your threat for you and a tank could easily afk their way through a lot of fights.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Most tanks in LFR don't do anything but sit there and get threat. I doubt they push any buttons -.-
    A little off topic, but it's very dependent on what time of the week you do LFR.

    Just after reset, I am actually impressed by the player base - they don't tend to abuse others (although they also tend not to have a reason to), they cooperate, the healers seem really pro and the tanks are assured (probably mainly raiders in offspecs, but they know the fights).

    The weekend or the day before reset, omg. There is no nullification barrier in the Feng fight - honestly, Blizzard takes it out of LFR around Friday time. Along with the spears for Mel'jarak. You can only queue as a tank if you swear an affadavit that you have not read Icy Veins or otherwise had your experience prejudiced by outside knowledge of tactics. The healers will try to heal until they have no mana (i.e. for a short while) but are not allowed to dispel, it is a big no no. The dps will try not to embarrass the discipline priest using atonement and by crikey, Blizzard is mean pulling that floor out from under them on Elegon.

    Sadly, I contribute to this too. The 50% valor bonus encourages you to rush your VP cap on your main then towards the end of the cycle, then play on your alts for higher VP returns. I didn't think a 50% bonus was a big deal, but on alts where the time you can give them will be inevitably limited, it really is.

  17. #37
    I love the Active Mitigation play style. It would be even more fun if we had to fight for threat like it was before the Cata fix. Never really liked the threat fix.

  18. #38
    Keyboard Turner ElboWw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    It's called requiring good play. It's the same as DPS who don't do their job and take unnecessary damage, and die.

    If healers can heal through everything, then it would be nothing but a mana check. But that's why there's personal responsibility - someone who spikes from 100 to 0 is either A) not mitigating damage, or B) standing in shit.

    To be honest, if it's a tank who spiked like that, he probably did both.
    wut she said ^^


    btw i love the idea of active mitigation; it makes tanking more engaging for the player.
    Last edited by ElboWw; 2013-01-17 at 06:22 PM.

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