1. #1

    Foreshadowing - Will we see the needed RoP changes?

    If the PTR went live now, it wouldn't even be a contest between Invocation and Rune of Power. You maintain the exact same damage bonus, but one allows you to move. What's the point of RoP? There currently isn't one. Not only that, we've seen no mention of RoP this PTR, and the blue posts haven't indicated they see a problem.

    It's relatively early in the PTR, but we need to see changes that follow what the design objective should have been for RoP and Invocation:

    Invocation: Cast and Forget. A safe spell.
    Rune of Power: Requires you to stand still, but you should be doing some insane damage if you maintain a high enough uptime.

    Rune of Power needs to be instant cast, maybe with a 1 second GCD, and/or last indefinitely. But even with those changes, it still isn't preferable to Invocation because of the same damage bonus. Rune, in all honesty, needs to be a good 17-20% damage bonus. You shouldn't need a 95% uptime to justify picking this talent over Invocation.

    And just like the entire L90 tier, Frost and Fire need to be decoupled from its mana bonuses and given simple mana regen bonuses. This way they can exclusively balance the L90 mana bonuses around Arcane, making it a lot easier to tune the knob if necessary.

    Thoughts/Comments? Will we see these needed changes?

  2. #2
    The use for ROP after the patch will be for fights that are practically patchwerk such as protectors of the endless. And who knows what kinds of fights we'll see in the upcoming raid.

  3. #3
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    No. Blizzard's MO is not to do overhauls mid-expac, which is what the Mage class needs.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    No. Blizzard's MO is not to do overhauls mid-expac, which is what the Mage class needs.
    That's what worries me, it isn't an overhaul. This is just changing numbers. Instant cast, indefinite duration, add an easy glyph, increase damage bonus. They've changed Invocation just as radically. Hell, they've added completely new abilities for some classes in this patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empath View Post
    The use for ROP after the patch will be for fights that are practically patchwerk such as protectors of the endless. And who knows what kinds of fights we'll see in the upcoming raid.
    But it really won't be. Invocation is a 15% increase that lasts a minute, so is RoP, except you can move after casting Invocation. You would have to maintain virtually 100% uptime on RoP to beat Invocation, which even on protectors (if you are avoiding the storm) is hard to do. It's not practical in the slightest. The second you move, Invocation passes it.

  5. #5
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    But it really won't be. Invocation is a 15% increase that lasts a minute, so is RoP, except you can move after casting Invocation. You would have to maintain virtually 100% uptime on RoP to beat Invocation, which even on protectors (if you are avoiding the storm) is hard to do. It's not practical in the slightest. The second you move, Invocation passes it.
    For Fire and Frost, mayhap. Arcane it's debatable.

    The mana aspect of these talents is what makes them worthless and stupid, really. But without the mana aspect, they're just boring damage increases; hence why they need to be scrapped.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  6. #6
    To be honest they need to remove the mana connection from Arcane too. Pick one of them (probably RoP) and make its mana effect baseline (so you have the regen at all times) and leave the talents as pure damage buffs.
    Managing an upkeep buff adds an extra dimension of strategy to the class, it doesn't need to also effect Arcane's mana because you already have an incentive to use the talents in the form of the damage buff and it merely pushes Arcane players into always picking the one that is most mana-efficient.
    If decoupled from mana entirely there's some chance they might be able to get RoP and Invocation exactly equal on most fights, and IW competitive on fights where it can be activated (which is never going to be all of them).

  7. #7
    I've made a couple suggestions about RoP, including making it drop at your feet and making it instant to at least make the QoL in the same ballpark, but GC's more interested in Mages getting on the PTR and trying things out right now. (like the one GCD Invo playstyle, is anyone trying that?)

    I'm not sure what there is to try about RoP though since its the same talent, just with less mana regen.

  8. #8
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    To be honest they need to remove the mana connection from Arcane too. Pick one of them (probably RoP) and make its mana effect baseline (so you have the regen at all times) and leave the talents as pure damage buffs.
    Managing an upkeep buff adds an extra dimension of strategy to the class, it doesn't need to also effect Arcane's mana because you already have an incentive to use the talents in the form of the damage buff and it merely pushes Arcane players into always picking the one that is most mana-efficient.
    If decoupled from mana entirely there's some chance they might be able to get RoP and Invocation exactly equal on most fights, and IW competitive on fights where it can be activated (which is never going to be all of them).
    Right, go ask Paladins how fun and engaging Inquisition is. Upkeep buffs are tolerable, but when they detract from mobility in addition to DPS their design is poor. Invocation is shit because it relies on an abilitity that is currently obsolete, Rune of Power runs contrary to Blizzard's design direction as regards boss fights especially considering the removal of things like Sniper Training.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  9. #9
    The fact that you can't just press a button once every 60 seconds and enjoy their full benefit is what makes them good talents, but we've had this discussion repeatedly and I'm not going to bother having it again.
    I already know how fond you are of rotations where you press a button once every 3 minutes rather than do something yourself

    I'm also slightly confused by the repeated requests to make RoP instant... you are aware that the cast time is already one GCD right?
    You can avoid any DPS lost at all by casting it before you move, and if that's not possible you lose a massive one GCD when you arrive (which you'd lose anyway if it was instant and appeared at your feet, and which would be an insignificant gain if it was instant and you could cast it while moving).
    Last edited by Imnick; 2013-01-18 at 11:14 PM.

  10. #10
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    The fact that you can't just press a button once every 60 seconds and enjoy their full benefit is what makes them good talents, but we've had this discussion repeatedly and I'm not going to bother having it again.
    I already know how fond you are of rotations where you press a button once every 3 minutes rather than do something yourself
    How about you quit it with the ad hominems? Your arguments are already weak as fuck, you don't need the additional layer of having to fail to support them by attacking people.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    For Fire and Frost, mayhap. Arcane it's debatable.

    The mana aspect of these talents is what makes them worthless and stupid, really. But without the mana aspect, they're just boring damage increases; hence why they need to be scrapped.
    Exactly. Decouple Frost and Fire from the L90 talents, so it's easily balanced for arcane. They can still be interesting if done properly. The concept behind RoP is awesome. It's so Mage. Standing on this glowing archaic rune that gives you incredible powers, etc.

    What if it wasn't just damage increases (directly that is). What if it reduced the GCD on Ice Lance by x%? What if it increased the crit chance modifier of Critical Mass by x%? I think you could do a lot with this.

  12. #12
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    Exactly. Decouple Frost and Fire from the L90 talents, so it's easily balanced for arcane. They can still be interesting if done properly. The concept behind RoP is awesome. It's so Mage. Standing on this glowing archaic rune that gives you incredible powers, etc.

    What if it wasn't just damage increases (directly that is). What if it reduced the GCD on Ice Lance by x%? What if it increased the crit chance modifier of Critical Mass by x%? I think you could do a lot with this.
    Which is what I am arguing for. Either interesting new abilities or passive improvements to existing abilities that aren't obsolete (Evocation be damned).
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  13. #13
    Why don't you guys look up what Improved Soul Fire was. Now look at Invocation. Realize Imp sf was removed after being complained about for an entire expansion. Realize Invocation expands upon every single problem that stemmed from Imp sf. Ask if Blizzard's team actually communicates with each other. Look at how and why Fire was recently buffed then nerfed. Realize the answer to the question was no.

  14. #14
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    Why don't you guys look up what Improved Soul Fire was. Now look at Invocation. Realize Imp sf was removed after being complained about for an entire expansion. Realize Invocation expands upon every single problem that stemmed from Imp sf. Ask if Blizzard's team actually communicates with each other.
    Sniper Training. And that hunter resource that got axed in Beta.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  15. #15
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    sw1tch, this is probably the first thread I've ever seen that doesn't just complain without offering solution (and you weren't even complaining). I know this won't mean much, but thank you for giving me a little bit of hope back for the mage community.

    Also: I agree with that absolutely. You should post this on the official mage forum.
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  16. #16
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alahondor View Post
    sw1tch, this is probably the first thread I've ever seen that doesn't just complain without offering solution (and you weren't even complaining). I know this won't mean much, but thank you for giving me a little bit of hope back for the mage community.

    Also: I agree with that absolutely. You should post this on the official mage forum.
    None of the devs read it. Or the damage dealing forums, apparently.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    The fact that you can't just press a button once every 60 seconds and enjoy their full benefit is what makes them good talents, but we've had this discussion repeatedly and I'm not going to bother having it again.
    I already know how fond you are of rotations where you press a button once every 3 minutes rather than do something yourself

    I'm also slightly confused by the repeated requests to make RoP instant... you are aware that the cast time is already one GCD right?
    You can avoid any DPS lost at all by casting it before you move, and if that's not possible you lose a massive one GCD when you arrive (which you'd lose anyway if it was instant and appeared at your feet, and which would be an insignificant gain if it was instant and you could cast it while moving).
    Instant cast is the least important to me. Although having it on a lower GCD and being instant cast would be awesome. But I'd easily choose indefinite duration and a damage increase anyday. And of course a glyph for it.


    They need to give us a reason to pick RoP over Invo. It currently isn't there.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    How about you quit it with the ad hominems? Your arguments are already weak as fuck, you don't need the additional layer of having to fail to support them by attacking people.
    I fail to see where the ad hominem is. He seems to be pointing out that although "fun" is a subjective (some of us actually like what you call upkeep buffs) and thus weak argument as well, it's not the first time you've invoked it. I certainly see nothing that warranted your agressive tone.
    I might've agreed with the "boring damage increase" thing if we were talking about passive bonuses, but as it stands, talents that are flat damage increases are actually commonplace. The 6th tier mage talents certainly need some tuning, but the concepts are interesting. No need to throw out the baby with the bath water.

    Regarding Sw1tch's original point, that seems too big not to be noticed by the dev team; in doubt, I'm sure that's the kind of feedback they would welcome. A case where you can formally demonstrate that one talent is a no-go compared to the alternative isn't what they're aiming for.

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