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  1. #1

    RoP or Invocation for a haste arcane mage?

    RoP or Invocation for a haste arcane mage? Which would you haste mages say is better? I'm trying the haste spec for the first time


    thanks!

  2. #2
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Haste + Mage Armor = RoP
    Haste + Frost Armor = Invocation

    Frost Armor + Invocation does more damage.

  3. #3
    thanks very much

  4. #4
    For Haste + Frost Armor + Invocation do you just burn to 30% and evocate then rinse and repeat or do you do any scorch weaving?

  5. #5
    From my tests in game the damage spread for me is as follows:
    RoP + Scorch = 100% dmg
    Innvocation Burn = 95% dmg
    RoP + ABarr = 90% dmg

    I use Frost armor for all 3, as its usually giving me better numbers than Mage Armor. I'm currently Haste > Mastery > Crit. Reforging Haste > Crit > Mastery may improve Innvo's numbers, but my gear isn't particularly friendly to that itemization at the moment.

    My Innvo burn rotation is basically as follows, after getting 6 stacks:
    Innvo (At 30% mana) > AM (Two charges) > MageDot > AM (One Charge)> AB

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Haste + Mage Armor = RoP
    Haste + Frost Armor = Invocation

    Frost Armor + Invocation does more damage.
    Thats just not true ;D

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by mishh View Post
    Thats just not true ;D
    Tbh, I'm not sure what is true and what is not. It all just might depend which fight you are currently doing. On stationary fights Haste + Mage Armor might be better with RoP but for myself, I prefer using Frost armor because of the mana regen and adding extra AB's to my rotation.

    Tried most of the different possibilities.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Haste + Mage Armor = RoP
    Haste + Frost Armor = Invocation

    Frost Armor + Invocation does more damage.
    Why cant you Haste + Frost + RoP ? Unless at very high gear, we're not capping our spells yet right ?

  9. #9
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Because the whole point of going haste and using frost armor was to have so much haste to make Invocation both viable and competitive by reducing its cast time and partially negating the mana regen reduction.

    Reducing your damage in favor of cast time and mana regen when you already have double mana regen from Rune of Power is highly inefficient. That's why the two styles I wrote above are the only two styles available to Haste and both have to be 6-charge camping to negate the mastery deficit. Barrage style is not playable with haste.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Because the whole point of going haste and using frost armor was to have so much haste to make Invocation both viable and competitive by reducing its cast time and partially negating the mana regen reduction.

    Reducing your damage in favor of cast time and mana regen when you already have double mana regen from Rune of Power is highly inefficient. That's why the two styles I wrote above are the only two styles available to Haste and both have to be 6-charge camping to negate the mastery deficit. Barrage style is not playable with haste.
    I can't get my head around it. I quote, from your stickied topic :

    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar
    *Also important* - Mastery oriented builds use Mage Armor (Mastery) while Haste oriented builds use Frost Armor (Haste).
    So by that logic any haste oriented build should use Frost armor, including Haste/RoP. This was using even before 5.2 PTR poped up and some people started playing around with haste Invo.
    I'm getting lower numbers using mage armor than when using frost armor (RoP build). Do you have any data for this ? I'm already topping meter like a madmen and getting ranked pretty often despite having a shitty gear, if I can get higher, that would be nice.

    Thanks.

  11. #11
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Because the whole point of going haste and using frost armor was to have so much haste to make Invocation both viable and competitive by reducing its cast time and partially negating the mana regen reduction.

    Reducing your damage in favor of cast time and mana regen when you already have double mana regen from Rune of Power is highly inefficient. That's why the two styles I wrote above are the only two styles available to Haste and both have to be 6-charge camping to negate the mastery deficit. Barrage style is not playable with haste.
    There's more to it than this; though. There's Nether Tempest ticks to factor in; there's how much damage you can fit into 6 seconds during Alter Time (yes that matters because assuming good play you'll get better use out of buffs/procs than in Mastery build) and there's also the number of Scorches that Mage Armor has to use instead of Frost Armor because of the slightly worse regen; it all makes a difference. Another thing to consider is that more Haste scales even more so with BL/TW/Hero, and therefore during BL/TW/Hero you're also casting more spells and therefore gaining an increased benefit from it.

    I wish I knew all the figures so I could do the maths and either prove you wrong or be proven wrong (I'm happy to admit that I could be slightly wrong; but I know my damage is decent and I play RoP with FA and Haste), but even if there is a difference I doubt it's that large.

  12. #12
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Are you topping meters and ranking with haste, frost armor and rop? And scorch? That's weird to me, when I tested it I wasn't satisfied with results. In that case I might revisit it soon.

    As for that part of my guide, I envisioned Haste builds only in synergy with Invocation. I'm very far from infallible link mr your armory please and if i can match your stats I'll test it.

  13. #13
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Are you topping meters and ranking with haste, frost armor and rop? And scorch? That's weird to me, when I tested it I wasn't satisfied with results. In that case I might revisit it soon.

    As for that part of my guide, I envisioned Haste builds only in synergy with Invocation. I'm very far from infallible link mr your armory please and if i can match your stats I'll test it.
    Any ranks that I have achieved this tier as Arcane have been with Frost Armor, Haste and RoP; currently don't expect to rank on anything anytime soon due to having to re-level and re-gear; but here's my old Armory:

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ycobi/advanced

    New Armory I'm getting decent results with; managed 90K so far (fully raid-buffed) on Sha (of Fear); didn't have to move at all so was pretty much a perfect attempt. Sadly didn't get double BL but oh well. Can't even be bothered with proper enchants (as you'll see) on some items as the gear just isn't worth it when I could be replacing it soon enough.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%AD/advanced

  14. #14
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Ok the differences in our gear (your old armory) is that I have LotC norm instead of EoT, the rest is just jumbled a bit differently. I also have the same weapon. I'll test this tonight in whatever raid they throw me in. The other two mages both play mastery and both have quite superior gear to mine so we'll see. Thanks.

  15. #15
    There's no reason to play haste rop without frost armor unless you can haste soft cap which is impossible without an almost fully upgraded bis set, or using non optimal pieces of gear.

  16. #16
    Field Marshal Envyadams's Avatar
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    I run a Haste/Frost Armor/RoP build and top meters very easily with a 6 AC Scorch stack but i have been doing this play style for quite awhile, prolly about when fire got dirtnapped, I dont always rank but its always pretty close (most ppl that do rank ignore mechanics and pad to rank imo so its not that big of a deal tbh)

    I think it comes down to how the playstyle feels, i have tried mastery builds and yea i notice the increase of dmg but it just doesn't feel right so I went back to Haste and it felt better best dmg be damned but again its just my pov and the difference between RoP and Evo really is just preference.
    Last edited by Envyadams; 2013-01-16 at 03:55 PM. Reason: spelling and grammar, wow im bad

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Are you topping meters and ranking with haste, frost armor and rop? And scorch? That's weird to me, when I tested it I wasn't satisfied with results. In that case I might revisit it soon.

    As for that part of my guide, I envisioned Haste builds only in synergy with Invocation. I'm very far from infallible link mr your armory please and if i can match your stats I'll test it.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/fr/characte...has/Daa/simple

    This is my mage. You should be able to find some WoL via wow heroes or raidbot if you want any data.
    Seeing my mediocre gear and PvE kills on MoP (havent even killed garalon) I think this build is pulling some pretty great numbers. ^^

  18. #18
    I'm currently trying out arcane because I'm unhappy with fire's state right now, gotta do a full regem. Running the Haste + Frost Armour + Invoc build, should I gem int/haste, pure haste, and hit/haste in the relevant sockets?

    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I'm currently trying out arcane because I'm unhappy with fire's state right now, gotta do a full regem. Running the Haste + Frost Armour + Invoc build, should I gem int/haste, pure haste, and hit/haste in the relevant sockets?
    Yes, that is correct.

  20. #20
    ya i'm not sure i would ever want to use inv for arc. not if you're weaving, thats for sure. i dont play arc so i dont really know but i tried it and it stunk

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