View Poll Results: What Energy change do you want as a rogue?

Voters
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  • Better Energy Regeneration

    91 56.88%
  • Great energy pool as a perment class option

    22 13.75%
  • Combo generating attacks do 2 points instead of 1

    13 8.13%
  • Nothing Rogues are fine

    34 21.25%
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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    Mechanics which we already have in Deadly Poison, Bandit's Guile and Rupture?
    Yes, exactly. Just have it so 60% of rogue damage doesn't come from passive application.

  2. #82
    Do you think there might be just a bit too much passive damage going on with rogues now? That's what personally turned me off.
    To use FPS terms, the high auto+poison damage keeps rogues feeling like an SMG instead of a shotgun. Maybe time for a change? (Source)
    if you're going to use fps terms don't you think a rogue should be more like a sniper rather than a shotgun
    Snipers have very low ROF though. They also tend to be complained about in FPS for the same reasons - uncounterable burst. (Source)
    in most games sniping takes more skill, which makes the good players not mind its extra power
    You and I read different FPS forums. (Source)

    While I'm quite happy with how my rogue plays (I roll assassination), the analogy you make is pretty spot-on.
    And I'm not saying the SMG feel is a bad design. Watching bars chew away quickly can be entertaining too. Diversity is good. (Source)
    So the developers think its okay for us to be the autoattack class. <,<

    Don't they get, that this isn't fun and diversity, its just sloppy design?

  3. #83
    Diversity is fine. Totally valid argument.

    If one of our specs had a focus on passiveness...

    We're not diverse as we are. We're similar across the board. We're the exact opposite of why he says we're fine. I simply do not understand these devs some times.

  4. #84
    I'd like one specc to play something like this:

    with one attack you create combopoints.with another you consume one combopoint and get energy instead. when your are at high lvls of energy you use a finisher which deals dmg depending on your amount of energy.

    at least that would feel somehow different. you don't even need the last part, just give us an attack which consumes CPs and generates energy. something like this would change the whole rotation-thing.

  5. #85
    Diversity is totally fine.

    Still the current rogue design is bad. It works, but it's bad. There's so much room for improvement....first of all get rid of that damn SnD. The SMG similarities are over now - it can work but if it's not fun people won't play i no matter what reason they give.

  6. #86
    some specs have a method of either generating rng based extra energy or extra combo points which is jsut saving you energy,

    combat procs energy from off-hand ( and mastery procs) -> combat gains energy regen from both haste ( two ways, more oh attacks and the passive) + higher mastery = more mastery procs = more mastery proced energy returns

    assasination, crit procs double combo points -> saved energy + haste regen, rupture procs energy ( identical average energy returns for single target rupture to snd for sub)

    sub -> haste provides regen, snd provides Fixed ammount.

    imo sub needs a new way to get energy just like the other two specs have link it to mastery indirectly as assasination maybe " the ammount that mastery increases snd by also works as haste rating to reduce the time between "energy ticks" from snd. -> if your mastery is making your snd 10% more , it makes the energy portion of snd tick 10% faster for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelodalix View Post
    What the fuck did you just say.

  7. #87
    As a question I don't think anyone has posed in the thread so far:
    What is your take on, having your energy regeneration tied to an external mechanic?

    Let me clarify.
    - Combat generates energy passively as well as via auto-attacks. Both of these mechanics are bound to the rogue.
    - Subtlety also generates energy passively and via Energetic Recovery, which is tied to Slice and Dice, a buff cast on the rogue himself.
    - Assassination also generates energy passively, but uniquely, its secondary energy-regeneration mechanic is tied to an external factor; an enemy, via Rupture.

    What does that mean?
    It means both a Combat and a Subtlety rogue will have consistent energy regeneration, no matter what circumstances they find themselves in. Assassination rogues, on the other hand, will be forced to either remain on one target or throw up a debuff(at the heavy expense of potential damage) just to actually get their resources back.

    In practice...
    This makes Assassination much weaker and/or just makes it feel awkward during instances in which quick target swapping is required, often resulting in you burning out your energy without dealing any real damage, upon which you're left energy-less and Rupture-less because your target died too quickly. You now find yourself in the awkward situation of having to continue dps-ing, while not having the resources to actually do so. If the fight would call for yet another target swap, you'd be in a world of pain once more...
    They've attempted to rectify the above by introducing a "energy-return-on-targets-death" mechanic. Unfortunately... It doesn't work consistently... The problem is therefore still a very real one.

    It also makes Assassination needlessly PvP unfriendly, because of the difficulty of juggling a debuff on a target, with low baseline combo point generation, low energy generation, and the prohibition of touching other targets in the meantime.



    How do you feel about the above?
    Are you content with how it works out for Assassination?
    Is this just a case of "Not every spec should be good at everything"?
    Or is it an actual problem that should be addressed?

    Discuss.

  8. #88
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    I touched on this in another thread, essentially, I think it's fairly easy to objectively see it's a poor mechanic on assassination's side of things. Having your main resource tied to an RNG mechanic, even if that mechanic has a 90% chance of procing, is bad design. (Look at all the iterations paladin's had with their mastery!)

    Because of this, when you play Subtlety and Combat, the predictably of the rotation is comforting, whilst the assassination one has moments of feeling very fluid followed by moments of oh god fuck rng, make it burn in hells of fire, I swear I'm going to rip this key off if I have to wait much longer to hit my wet noodle of an attack.

    Honestly, I feel like that's part of the problem. This mechanic, whilst I still believe is flawed, could work if mutilate actually hit hard, instead, it works counter intuitively, mutilate costs close to half your entire energy bar, hits with a low-ish upfront damage with a chance to proc some small extra damage; envenom costs less than 30% of your energy bar, hit's fairly hard and gives you increased chance to deal further damage. It makes no sense.

    On the pvp side of things, having your main energy regen mechanic being tied to debuff is plain stupid, utterly stupid - I mean, I've had to stop thinking about it because it's hurting my brain with how stupid it actually is.

    What this comes down to follows in with GC's view that we're akin to an SMG rather than a shotgun, except what he's forgotten to take into account is that we're like an SMG that reloads like a rocket launcher, that's really, really stoned. Until we're changed, we're bad in both designs.

    The balancing of such a large issue is not one for me to address, I don't have nearly the expertise. However, what I'd like to see happen is change to make combo point builders low energy cost and displacing the energy cost onto the finishers, finish off with a quick change to remove the RNG aspect from energy regen. If you've ever tried playing around with Shuriken Toss, you'll understand the play style this creates - fast paced and engaging.

    This of course, doesn't even start consider the even larger overarching issue that an unreasonably large amount of Assassination's damage comes from putting up SnD and watching auto attack go nuts.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-01-21 at 04:55 PM.
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  9. #89
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    Faster energy regen.

    I don't care if they nerf our damage to balance out the faster pace of attacks (as long as overall we come out similar), I just hate feeling like the bar is creeping back. Too much pooling, too much downtime. I miss that urgent pace.
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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Because of this, when you play Subtlety and Combat, the predictably of the rotation is comforting, whilst the assassination one has moments of feeling very fluid followed by moments of oh god fuck rng, make it burn in hells of fire, I swear I'm going to rip this key off if I have to wait much longer to hit my wet noodle of an attack.
    i love assassination, but this is a major problem with the spec compared to the other two. grinding to a screeching halt because i didn't get a VW proc for 6 seconds after getting no seal fate or blindside procs from the last two mutilates i used. then i have exactly 4 CPs and zero energy; for the next 9 seconds i'm useless.

  11. #91
    Incineration's points regarding energy regen are pretty on target.

    One of the problems that I've seen is that, when it comes times to adjust rogues, the devs often give a bad version of something another spec has to the spec in question. This is both unoriginal and tends to feel like a burden instead of a mechanic.

    In the olden days, your energy came back, 20 every 2 seconds, on the same global heartbeat that delivered all manner of resources. This global heartbeat's only function now seems to be to check if a DR should be reset, but it was once an interesting part of WoW.

    Nowadays, energy regeneration scales with haste rating. The more you have, the faster it comes back. This is common to ALL rogue specs, and it seems to be "just what haste does".

    Combat increases all energy regen passively by I think 15%. This was 25% up until MoP- it was 25% back before haste was around. Those two things together tended to global cap combat sometimes. Regardless, the important thing here is that this scales- it's not some constant. It's interesting and a good mechanic. Combat's SECOND mechanic to get back energy is with autoattacks and mastery procs, which can invigorate the rogue. This ALSO scales- this time with expertise, hit rating and haste rating. Combat is the "energy regeneration" spec, it's part of the kit that a combat rogue have unceasing attacks most of the time.

    To increase sub's damage, "energetic recuperation" became a thing. This was tied to recup, which was interesting, but is currently tied to slice and dice as part of the successful campaign to remove rogues from any kind of pvp. This is currently 4 energy per second on average- a pretty big boost, but not one increased by haste.

    To increase muti's damage, it was originally able to proc energy from autoattacks. I think this was considered too similar to main gauche. The energy regen was tied to rupture, where it sits to this day.

    In order for muti's energy regen to not feel like a weight, it should be able to be effectively exploited on multiple targets. Without that it's kind of just a burden. As it stands, it can be exploited in this manner- to a small degree.


    Why do all three specs even need a mechanic like this? One spec could have a combo builder on a timer, at 0 energy, for instance. That would be far more interesting than just "you gain energy as long as a bunch of shit that only happens in pve comes true at once". How many times are you attacking a mage that stays poisoned and bled for long enough to proc more energy than you paid for it?

  12. #92
    I think that energy regen should be something totally passive. I mean, no procs, no buffs no other strange things - just a fixate amount.

    Why Sub rotation feels so fluid even with low haste amounts? Because it's a steady amount over time. Energy regeneration should be something we don't care much about; like mana for retridins or enha shamans, it's a virtual resource just needed to be sure the dps cyce can be mantained.

    With this i don't mean we need infinite energy, but only a fast enough regen to keep up the dps cycle without downtimes. Pooling for use better timers is fun and interesting, it's not fun when you have to pool for like 6 seconds every 2 moves and on the contrary it's not fun to feel overhelmed by energy regen - it seems like we're not fast enough to dispatch all we've got.

    The great idea on warlocks has been the fact that the rotation now is based over 3 different resources which are independent from their main one and their cycle is based over the usage of these.

  13. #93
    Better energy regen will come later in the expansion as we gain more haste off gear. When you learn how to pool appropriately it doesn't become an issue. My rogue is still my favourite class and I honestly wouldn't want to make any major changes to it.

  14. #94
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiravan View Post
    Better energy regen will come later in the expansion as we gain more haste off gear. When you learn how to pool appropriately it doesn't become an issue. My rogue is still my favourite class and I honestly wouldn't want to make any major changes to it.
    I hate being so succinct, but it's been reiterated so many times now;

    Having a resource only work at the end of an expansion - Poor design
    Having to pool and simply sit there - Poor design/better options possible
    By mere virtue of having to pool shows there's an issue, so I'm not sure how it removes it.
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  15. #95
    3 combo points instead of 5 and/or points on the Rogue, not on the target.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashevyn View Post
    3 combo points instead of 5 and/or points on the Rogue, not on the target.
    This would reduce "ramp-up" time significantly during target-swapping. If they really intend to keep the "CP's stack on targets" restriction, I'd really like a reduction in finisher costs, akin to the suggestion above.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I think that energy regen should be something totally passive. I mean, no procs, no buffs no other strange things - just a fixate amount.

    Why Sub rotation feels so fluid even with low haste amounts? Because it's a steady amount over time. Energy regeneration should be something we don't care much about; like mana for retridins or enha shamans, it's a virtual resource just needed to be sure the dps cyce can be mantained.

    With this i don't mean we need infinite energy, but only a fast enough regen to keep up the dps cycle without downtimes. Pooling for use better timers is fun and interesting, it's not fun when you have to pool for like 6 seconds every 2 moves and on the contrary it's not fun to feel overhelmed by energy regen - it seems like we're not fast enough to dispatch all we've got.

    The great idea on warlocks has been the fact that the rotation now is based over 3 different resources which are independent from their main one and their cycle is based over the usage of these.
    I second this. Having our energy regenerating skills tied to some random numbers is just a bad design. Having static regen at first would feel very strange and would probably change a lot in our secondary stats but it would be a definite improvement. If I think back to the energy regen of early 90's gear...oh the horror.

    You could say that this would make rogues even more homogenised(sp?) but at least it wouldn't force you to choose a spec that's against your "gaming style". (I prefer combat because of the faster paced mechanics, I just fall asleep as assassination...)

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