What energy change do Rogues want most ?

[D3athsting]

Energy regen is not the problem, cp builders hitting like a wet noodle and autoattack with snd are the real rogue problems...

[Deleted]

Could you elaborate? I've seen plenty of people making similar claims, but it doesn't say much. How is it "stuck in classic"? It's not changed, but it's not exactly outdated either. It's just boring and restricting - that doesn't make it outdated, though.

Sure I can try.

I will start with looking at the other ressources from classic to MoP.

Rage:
Back in Classic, rage could only be gained with white attacks that hit (shielded damage didn't award rage) and damage taken.

This mechanic led to alot of problems from rage starvation to execcsive rage depending on level and gear. It was nearly impossible to balance the damage a warrior was able to do with it.

So rage was changed to be a ressource only used for bonusattacks while all the basic rotational abilities became rage builders (Mortal strike) or became completly free (Overpower, Colossus Smash).


Before that change warriors had situation where they were not even able to use Mortal strike on cooldown because of rage starvation, leading to a very dull and boring playstyle: Having to wait x time (for an autoattack) to get some rage to perform an attack.

Similar to Rogues now.


Hunters mana:
Hunters had mana in classic which was quite strange and worked like i discribed above: The Hunter burned his mana with his attacks till the bar was empty and then switched to Aspect of the Viper to regen His manapool while dealing 50% less damage during that time.

That led to hunters damage being split between a time where they were doing full damage and a time where they were doing half damage.

Needless to say this playstyle was awkward and later was changed to focus.
Hunters then had to build their ressource with stady shot and used these ressources for their signature shots but they were always able to perform their basic rotation due to full controll on when they can create ressources by just using steady shot.


Mana:
Caster mana has been redesigned aswell, devs finally figured out that running out of mana as a damage dealing class is not fun. Therefor mana has become a nearly infinite ressource for DDs since their mana regen is tied to some skills they have full controll of. (Life tap, evocation and so on)



Rogues:

The only class that is left with its ressource still stuck in classic are Rogues.
Their energy has not been changed since classic, it works still the same while rogues don't have controll of it, the regen is passiv all the time.
Combopoints are another thing that has not been changed since classic. The mechanic is archaic and cripples the class thus skills like redirect have been implended.

Back in classic rogues had energy starvation aswell but their attacks and especially finishers did so much damage that it made up for the time where rogues had to wait for energy (though it still was not fun)

Now the damage a rogues attack does is nowhere near where it was, above 60% of our damage is tied to passives (Autoattacks, slice and dice, poison dot and poison procs) leaving our builders and finishers with even less damage on hit while still having to wait the time till we can use them again.


As you see every other classressource has been changed and updated the last two expensions to be more up to par with how the game works now.
Rogues didn't get this update ... all they got was shifting even more damage away from actual strikes to passive sources making it a class with a playstyle that involves maintaining its autoattacks and passive sources and not dealing the damage while using the button.


And to be honest, using a button and seeing it does 50k damage is much more fun than using a button and see my autoattacks are now coming slighly faster.

[Demeia]

The fix to rogues isn't changing energy. Its 1) putting combo points on the rogue and 2) redirecting passive damage into active damage. Optional 3) a few new spell effects. We have... two slightly visible spell effects right now?

That's more or less how I feel. There's certainly a case to be made for an ability that gives you a bonus x (50?) energy cap for a few seconds; but on the other hand, rogues need flash not more buttons to pop.

[Nosferato]

energy regen increased for all but combat, and vw should be 100% giving 15 energy or 20, or it would be fun during some skills energy regen would increase such as if you have the envenom buff, every poison strikes gives 1 energy, and vw gives an aditional 5 energy (100% pro), also combo moves that feels like a bug, mut got double the chance to gain a crit than dispatch, when your dispatch dosnt crit you feel it takes forever to gain 5 cp, i wish they would give back some crit modifiers on some skills like old backstab 30% crit to dispatch, or 20% incse it would be op.

[OneSent]

Personally I want our better energy regen back.

I would like to know exactly when you are talking about here, because I keep seeing this statement. If by "our better energy regen" you mean 4.3, then that would explain why our current energy regen feels so slow to you and so many other whining rogues this expansion.

During Dragon Soul and throughout most of Cataclysm, our energy regen was so outrageous due to the haste levels on our gear that it was almost impossible to spend it. Toss in Adrenaline Rush with legendary daggers and you found yourself capped more often than not. It was not fun and it was not comfortable to play.

What I'm gathering from all these complaints is that rogues today want to have something to do to fill every single GCD. But prior to 4.0, that was never the case with our class. We've always had downtime between our attacks. Over the years, everyone else has changed into a spam-fest, GCD-capped nightmare and I was afraid rogues were heading in that direction. But when I found out that our energy regen was slower in 5.0, I rejoiced.

Cataclysm was, for me, the worst expansion to be a rogue because of our frantic energy regen. So if I had to make any changes to it, I would actually go back to the way it worked prior to WotLK - when it ticked every 2 seconds. It was fluid and predictable and every action you hit felt like it mattered.


I'd like to quote part of an article written by Chase Christian, the writer for the rogue column at WoW Insider regarding our energy regen:

I feel like we've taken a major step backwards in terms of mechanical gameplay. We've transitioned from the class that played methodically and planned attacks ahead of time into a button-mashing brute that doesn't have the luxury of waiting around.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any going back. Today's assassination rogues are frequently complaining about the massive downtime between their attacks, when in reality they're attacking much more frequently than the rogues of old. Many rogues embraced the mindless Sinister Strike spam of Dragon Soul and its instant damage gratification. Haste is currently assassination's worst stat overall, so everyone is reforging out of it. This only serves to exacerbate the problem, widening the divide between a late-Cataclysm rogue's rotation and today's slow attack rate.

I don't see a way out. It's too late to revert energy regeneration back to its pre-BC days, and rogues are only getting more and more addicted to spamming their combo point generators. Where can we go from here?

Here is the full article. It's a good read and I would suggest everyone to read it: http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/en...pam-and-haste/

[Deleted]

With a volatile resource such as energy I don't think you'll ever strike the right mark for everyone - the difference between a 463 unbuffed and a 500 raid buffed with Bloodlust is so big that either one will be starved or the other flooded. Maybe even both. Towards the end of cataclysm, combat - being the predominant spec - couldn't stay off 100 energy during burst phases. Personally I found it quite annoying to lose DPS and not be able to do anything about it.

In today's environment, combat's energy seems a bit on the low side, but really not far off, and it's expected to ramp up as we progress through the expansion. For assassination, energy starvation feels quite significant - I'm not sure if people out there like looking at their energy bar refilling, but personally I despise it. The problem is not scaling so much as stat weights though; with haste being the de facto stat to reforge away from, the spec is just geared for slow regen. Whether that will be helped as we gear up remains to be seen, but I doubt it will reach the mark I would personally prefer.

but you didnt lose dps as long as you used every gcd.

[theturn]

I would like to know exactly when you are talking about here, because I keep seeing this statement. If by "our better energy regen" you mean 4.3, then that would explain why our current energy regen feels so slow to you and so many other whining rogues this expansion.

During Dragon Soul and throughout most of Cataclysm, our energy regen was so outrageous due to the haste levels on our gear that it was almost impossible to spend it. Toss in Adrenaline Rush with legendary daggers and you found yourself capped more often than not. It was not fun and it was not comfortable to play.

What I'm gathering from all these complaints is that rogues today want to have something to do to fill every single GCD. But prior to 4.0, that was never the case with our class. We've always had downtime between our attacks. Over the years, everyone else has changed into a spam-fest, GCD-capped nightmare and I was afraid rogues were heading in that direction. But when I found out that our energy regen was slower in 5.0, I rejoiced.

Cataclysm was, for me, the worst expansion to be a rogue because of our frantic energy regen. So if I had to make any changes to it, I would actually go back to the way it worked prior to WotLK - when it ticked every 2 seconds. It was fluid and predictable and every action you hit felt like it mattered.


I'd like to quote part of an article written by Chase Christian, the writer for the rogue column at WoW Insider regarding our energy regen:


Here is the full article. It's a good read and I would suggest everyone to read it: http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/en...pam-and-haste/

According to shadowcraft haste has overtaken crit and this seems to happen around that 480 ilvl range. Im at 497 ilvl right now and I'm taking haste over crit. Right now with assasination you can literally walk away from your keyboard fill a glass of water and come back before you cap out on energy and the best pat is you probably would lose any dps assuming the boss is not moving. The easiest solution would be to go back to where energy regeneration was a set amount and haste didn't effect it. That way you can balance out each spec and make sure its balanced. It also solves the DS problem where we had so much energy we were spamming as hard as we could.

Have energy regen set and raise our active dmg and lower our passive dmg and many if not most rogues would be happy.

[Deleted]

but you didnt lose dps as long as you used every gcd.

It was purely a quality of life issue for sure. But perception is a big part of design, I find. If something feels bad (and isn't a question of changing behavior), it should be addressed.

[Deleted]

Yes, you are right but that will never, ever happen and you and rest of the class knows it, because if they do that the entire classes will start to bich again with the '' ROGUESSSSSSS ARE OPPPPPPPPPPPPP KILL THEMMM '' and they did it, they listened to the alll other classes and we are now gutted, a shadow that was once the rogue, all thanks to the good ears of blizz that did exactly that they destroyed us but boostedddddddddd all otherrrr classes in every single point, the daddy of all is the warrior, followed by the good old lock that deals just 500 k crit its beautiful. All they work on its a start for the rogue but still the survival issues remain

[Deleted]

i'd like to see assassinations energy regen increased dramatically, didnt really play sub and i'm nearly ok with combat's. scale down ss-dmg, mutilate, etc. and make eviscerate hit like a truck. it's already been said: rogues were redesigned to be that passive-dmg bitch we are now, just because of others complaining about pvp but it seems ok, that other classes hit for 500k? i really don't understand that logic...

[Deleted]

You should have included an option in the poll like: "none of the above, explain:".

What I want is: SnD passive but with less haste, and a flat dmg bonus to all our specials, especially finishers.

Energy regen is more or less fine...

[Sturmgewehr86]

Re design the energy to be unaffected by haste,so we dont feel like shit in the beggining of the expansions, and at the end just spamming as hard as we can to not cap ourselves.

[Ethador]

Since rogues have been OP most of the time I don´t mind them atm, except when I play one. I want to spam more buttons ...

[Itisamuh]

I'd like an ability that does decent damage (higher than an auto attack) that gives energy instead of costing it. Nothing's as boring as downtime.

[Coldkil]

Normalized energy regen (someting baseline like hunter focus) and TAKE AWAY THE HASTE COMPONENT. Make haste more interesting, but remove it from resource - it's just leading to energy capping for combat and making assa starved since it's not a desiderable stat.

Different per-spec ways to regenerate it (i like incineration's idea, but also like energetic recovery - steady fixed regen) - just it doesn't have to be crapload pof procs that combat and assa have, which are first of all unpredictable and you just feel starved waiting for the proc.

@Incineration: continue your work, it's very interesting.

[shadowboy]

The energy mechanic is fine as is. I don't think it needs to be changed for any spec with one exception--Adrenaline rush. I feel combat's energy regeneration is appropriate for the spec, outside of that cooldown. Adrenaline rush has two problems. One is that it GCD caps a combat rogue to a 0.8sec GCD. That isn't fun, it's strenuous play, even if only for 15 seconds of every 90 or so. The other problem is this--any time energy becomes irrelevent (alysrazor when flying, sinestra, etc), adrenaline rush switches from becoming a strong cooldown to a fairly weak one that is barely better than the troll racial. Adrenaline rush needs to have its energy regeneration adjusted downward and its attack speed adjusted upward.

[Deleted]

That already exists in game. The resource is called focus. Rage also functions similarly.

His suggestion reminded me of the eclipse resource with its build ups and bursts. While I like the concept of eclipse, I also quite like that rogues are able to maintain output throughout a fight. It could work though, and I'd like to hear more.

My biggest gripe with the current energy model is how the (deliberate) disparity between specs makes it either too abundant or not enough across the class. I believe there's a happy medium to be found here, and it lies in streamlining resource accumulation across specs. Balance Venomous Wounds, Vitality, Combat Potency, Energetic Recovery and Haste so that energy accumulation is more consistent, and with only one interval to worry about, devote the remaining time to making it scale better with gear.

[shadowboy]

His suggestion reminded me of the eclipse resource with its build ups and bursts. While I like the concept of eclipse, I also quite like that rogues are able to maintain output throughout a fight. It could work though, and I'd like to hear more.

My biggest gripe with the current energy model is how the (deliberate) disparity between specs makes it either too abundant or not enough across the class. I believe there's a happy medium to be found here, and it lies in streamlining resource accumulation across specs. Balance Venomous Wounds, Vitality, Combat Potency, Energetic Recovery and Haste so that energy accumulation is more consistent, and with only one interval to worry about, devote the remaining time to making it scale better with gear.

While the dagger specs do have less energy income than combat, they also do more damage with that energy than combat (sort of, see note below). They also perform more finishers than combat so they get more energy back via relentless strikes, making them even more energy efficient. The energy income is balanced around that.

Note: Assassination's energy abilities directly do less damage-per-energy than combat's, dispatch notwithstanding, but the real benefit from them is spread out. Mutilate is less damage per energy spent than sinister strike, but it generates more combo points per energy spent, leading to more envenoms. Envenom does less direct damage than eviscerate for combat, but once you factor in the extra damage from the extra poison procs during envenom buff, it works out to be significantly more damage than combat's finishers.

That said, I'd agree that combat needs to be less passive. I'd like to see combat's builders/finishers do more damage and I'd like to see the offhand damage from ambidexterity nerfed to WotLK levels.

[Rathwirt]

I'd be happy with a slightly larger energy pool and doubled energy regen outside of combat so you don't have to wait as long when chain-killing mobs for questing.

[Coldkil]

To anyone here: have you of you tried to raid as Subtlety?

Cycle and dps apart, the energy regen of Sub feels so smooth it's a pleasure to play. You never feel at risk of capping like Combat while you don't have the downtime of Assassination. It's an incredibly good experience.

The question is because i want more feedback on sub, it's a spec largely ignored just because no one bothers to try it. Imho i's a sweet point from start to adapt the other 2 specs.