1. #1
    The Patient onlychildish's Avatar
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    Windwalker DPS Issues

    POSTING FOR A FRIEND

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1g13ebjstf9ywhyk/

    Logs for tonight. I seem to be having trouble with my DPS, although I don't feel I should be. Generally in dungeons and LFR I do well, but in these normal raids I just did horribly.

    Am I missing something? Here's my armoury: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...adehawk/simple

    This is the rotation I follow: http://icy-veins.com/windwalker-monk...owns-abilities
    (I suck at explaining) But I seriously follow that rotation to the mark, and yet mainly in these normal raids I'm pulling low dps.

    If anyone could assist in the issue I'd be appreciative, thank you. ^_^

  2. #2
    Going by the Will of the Emperor kill (probably the best 'stand and nuke' boss out of the options provided):

    First off, your friend should be able to do a lot better at the opportunistic strikes. He's getting hit by a lot of stomps, the stun, which will impact his DPS significantly. This suggests to me that positioning and situational awareness is not his strong point. This can have a negative impact on DPS if you simply don't pay attention to encounter mechanics.

    I'm also seeing no uses of Touch of Karma. On WotE you have a perfect moment to use it (the gas) to both reduce the damage taken and improve DPS, and he's not using it. Not good. (EDIT: My bad, I missed it on my first glance over. He does actually use it, so that's good.)

    I'm also seeing only a 50% uptime on Tiger Power (the buff from Tiger Palm), which is frankly terrible. That needs to be 100%, no exceptions. 30% ArP is too large to ignore. Similarly, there's an 80% uptime on the RSK debuff, which means he's not using RSK on cooldown, which means a significant DPS loss.

    The armory itself looks good (though those bracers need enchanting), but while he's following the strict priority... He's not understanding why he's doing it. He's not understanding why the priority is set that way, and as such doesn't know when he should break from that priority to improve DPS.

    This is the advice to give to him: Delve deep into the class. Understand why you do what you do. Practice, practice, practice. Get experience. There's so much more to the class than simply reading a website and following a strict priority. That will get you average results. You want to excel.

    Feel free to ask further questions on his behalf. But honestly, the best thing to do is just keep practicing and learn the class inside-out. Make the rotation complete second nature, can do it in his sleep, so he can then know when to break the priority list for better results, while keeping an eye on the raid encounter.

  3. #3
    Keyboard Turner
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    You're reforging crit to haste. When using a 2h it's better to reforge to crit.

  4. #4
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    ^ (for DW this is true as well as long as you stay above 4k haste)

    - Gemming should be agility + something else, not pure haste; red pure agi, yellow agi + crit, blue agi + hit.
    - Enchant missing on bracers.
    - Ascension should be taken instead of Power Strikes, more energy is great and the 5 chi makes it easier to use FoF / ToK while keeping RSK on cd.
    - Glyph of Touch of Karma is recommended to make using it easier
    - FoF damage looks too high, only use this when you don't have RSK coming off cd during FoF, or when you will energy cap during FoF. If you use it at the wrong time your DPS will go down, not up. Not using FoF at all might be preferable to using FoF at the wrong time.
    - As said above, ToK can be used a lot more aggressively if you know the encounters well, on some encounters you can get it to do up to 400k damage every 1.5 minutes.
    Last edited by Mihir; 2013-01-16 at 03:59 PM.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    BrM is my main spec but been doing a bit more as WW since we have 3 tanks and it's hard to deny I'm gearing my OS the same as my tanking MS. I'm running in the top 6 DPS usually, not really studying the class too deep here are some things that helped me do so well even feeling like I do a rather mediocre job.

    1) Run to the WW Weak Aura post and pull down some strings. I literally just stare at my WA "to do list" and it helps me keep RSK on CD, TeB at 10 stacks, warns when Tiger Power is about to fall off, Xuen off CD, tries to gauge when I should use FoF, ect. I just stare at that UI in the middle of my screen and do what it says and I'm breaking 100k on some fights now with my gear.
    2) Don't forget to pot and repot (especially if it lines up with using Xuen)
    3) Don't forget touch of karma. Did a few attempts of H Feng and completely forgot to use it during his raid AoE's and kicked myself for it.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  6. #6
    I actually will take up with the comments about going haste heavy being a bad option. I had been taking the statements that with ascension, 4k haste was a solid amount as fact. Then I noticed that some of the top ranked monks on WoL were running haste heavy ascension builds. I ran this through SimCraft for my toon and actually focused on haste reforging and the gains / losses associated with it and it had a pretty consistant gain in DPS from haste reforging. So, I tried it out. I did a 5 minute run on a target dummy with my current build and pulled about 65k DPS, which was on par with what I was used to. I reforged to a haste heavy build and my DPS went up to 78k and I can repeat that with consistancy. In raids I've seen about a 5-8k DPS increase as well. I know my rotation isn't perfect, I sometimes will delay an RSK by a GCD, etc. but I'd say I'm pretty solid most of the time. Oh, and I rarely feel energy starved and when I do I mix in EB or FoF.

    My Armory

    I will admit that it could be that my rotation is worse than I gauge it (and most psychological studies on perceived performance suggest it probably is), but ultimately a haste heavy build can be a DPS increase for some.

    Long story short, you really have to play around with different reforging to know what works best for you, especially when it comes to haste and WW monks.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Feylor View Post
    I actually will take up with the comments about going haste heavy being a bad option. I had been taking the statements that with ascension, 4k haste was a solid amount as fact. Then I noticed that some of the top ranked monks on WoL were running haste heavy ascension builds. I ran this through SimCraft for my toon and actually focused on haste reforging and the gains / losses associated with it and it had a pretty consistant gain in DPS from haste reforging. So, I tried it out. I did a 5 minute run on a target dummy with my current build and pulled about 65k DPS, which was on par with what I was used to. I reforged to a haste heavy build and my DPS went up to 78k and I can repeat that with consistancy. In raids I've seen about a 5-8k DPS increase as well. I know my rotation isn't perfect, I sometimes will delay an RSK by a GCD, etc. but I'd say I'm pretty solid most of the time. Oh, and I rarely feel energy starved and when I do I mix in EB or FoF.

    My Armory

    I will admit that it could be that my rotation is worse than I gauge it (and most psychological studies on perceived performance suggest it probably is), but ultimately a haste heavy build can be a DPS increase for some.

    Long story short, you really have to play around with different reforging to know what works best for you, especially when it comes to haste and WW monks.
    Since when is 4400 haste "haste heavy"? That's right around where it should be. You can even see it in Simcraft that people talking about haste being worse than Crit for 2h is completely false. The only reason we stop and don't go above 5k or 6k haste is for Energy capping issues, it has nothing to do with auto-attacks.

    On the topic of the OP's Monk, I could point out the same things other posters have done, but that wouldn't be much help as you already know that. The real way to play a class well is to ask yourself why it is that you do everything you do and to know the answer. This goes for things that aren't right (why Power Strikes? Why Deadly Reach? Why spend VP on a Ring/Necklace when you can upgrade your weapon or buy a trinket that isn't awful?) and things that are truths (Why is Xuen better than Chi Torpedo or RJW? Why do we prioritize Haste first? Why do we use Fists of Fury?). If you look at a single thing you do in regards to your class and can't explain exactly why it is that you do that particular thing, you need to learn your class better.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    (Why is Xuen better than Chi Torpedo or RJW? Why do we prioritize Haste first? Why do we use Fists of Fury?). If you look at a single thing you do in regards to your class and can't explain exactly why it is that you do that particular thing, you need to learn your class better.
    Would like to hear the 'why' for FoF. I know with the correction to haste scaling the channel it became more viable but I've been unable to use it properly. I either end up capping energy or RSK comes off CD during the channel, or just can't use it anyways due to movement inc in the fight.

    Was reading a lot saying WW are still topping meters without FoF in their rotation so at the moment I've just been ignoring it.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  9. #9
    I hardly ever bother with FoF, I must admit. I try to squeeze it in where I can but overall I don't worry too much about it. I seem to do plenty of DPS regardless, so hey.

  10. #10
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Would like to hear the 'why' for FoF. I know with the correction to haste scaling the channel it became more viable but I've been unable to use it properly. I either end up capping energy or RSK comes off CD during the channel, or just can't use it anyways due to movement inc in the fight.

    Was reading a lot saying WW are still topping meters without FoF in their rotation so at the moment I've just been ignoring it.
    TT will probably chime in with more information, but while I'm here:

    Yes, you can top meters. It does less than 1% more damage than BoK. Theoretically, you can use it at 89 energy (I typically ensure I'm at below 85), cap, and still have done more damage.

    It adds variety, but that's more of a flavor thing and less important. The main thing is - it allows us to drop some haste and forge into crit, therefore large numbers. In addition, it is 3 Chi for a total of around (excluding crits) 250K damage, whereas BoK is 2 Chi for around 70K damage (I believe that's including its DoT). And then if you compare BoK over the same 3 sec channel (let's say 3 BoKs in a row - not possible, you'd waste at least 1 global on Jab, but that overcomplicates things), that's still only 280K damage, for 6 Chi. So the damage per Chi of BoK is theoretically less than the damage per Chi of FoF.

    If you dont' want to look at it as damage per chi, FoF still comes out on top. My cast is around 3.6seconds long, with all 5 ticks. According to logs, I do an average of 63K/tick with FoF. That's 5 * 63 000 = 315 000, divide by 3.6 for 87.5K/s. According to logs, my "average" BoK is around 66K. So, by this math, FoF is still more damage/s.

    There's more to it than that, but that's the basics.

  11. #11
    The question can either be "Why do we use FoF", "Why don't we use FoF", or "Why can no one agree whether we should or shouldn't use FoF?" It really doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread and what I meant what the real answer is, the point is that knowing how and why your class does what it does is the single best way to, not only become good at your class, but to become a better player in general. We can give specific critiques to "do this" and "don't do that" all we want, but that's usually only a temporary solution. There's nothing really specific about this thread that makes me bring this up, but I feel like it's good to remind everyone once in a while when these types of threads come up that, while fixing current mistakes is nice, learning more about the game is what can truly make you a better player.

  12. #12
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The question can either be "Why do we use FoF", "Why don't we use FoF", or "Why can no one agree whether we should or shouldn't use FoF?" It really doesn't matter for the purposes of this thread and what I meant what the real answer is, the point is that knowing how and why your class does what it does is the single best way to, not only become good at your class, but to become a better player in general. We can give specific critiques to "do this" and "don't do that" all we want, but that's usually only a temporary solution. There's nothing really specific about this thread that makes me bring this up, but I feel like it's good to remind everyone once in a while when these types of threads come up that, while fixing current mistakes is nice, learning more about the game is what can truly make you a better player.
    SO TRUE.

    I used to just "accept" what my rotation was - and that made me a "good" player in BC.

    But starting in late Wrath/early Cata, I began to explore the "whys", and things began to make sense. Breakpoints made sense, spell choices made sense (I was a resto shaman up until T13, starting in Vanilla), and suddenly - it all made sense. Connecting the dots with logic is what put me from a run-of-the-mill player to being competitive, and being able to handle hardmode content.

    Sorry, just wanted to emphasize this comment. Because this is what we mean by "know your class."

  13. #13
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feylor View Post
    I actually will take up with the comments about going haste heavy being a bad option. I had been taking the statements that with ascension, 4k haste was a solid amount as fact. Then I noticed that some of the top ranked monks on WoL were running haste heavy ascension builds. I ran this through SimCraft for my toon and actually focused on haste reforging and the gains / losses associated with it and it had a pretty consistant gain in DPS from haste reforging. So, I tried it out. I did a 5 minute run on a target dummy with my current build and pulled about 65k DPS, which was on par with what I was used to. I reforged to a haste heavy build and my DPS went up to 78k and I can repeat that with consistancy. In raids I've seen about a 5-8k DPS increase as well. I know my rotation isn't perfect, I sometimes will delay an RSK by a GCD, etc. but I'd say I'm pretty solid most of the time. Oh, and I rarely feel energy starved and when I do I mix in EB or FoF.

    My Armory

    I will admit that it could be that my rotation is worse than I gauge it (and most psychological studies on perceived performance suggest it probably is), but ultimately a haste heavy build can be a DPS increase for some.

    Long story short, you really have to play around with different reforging to know what works best for you, especially when it comes to haste and WW monks.
    The main reasoning behind the 4k haste is that any more haste than that requires you to have a 100% uptime, which is not possible on pretty much every encounter. And every second you are out of melee range drops the value of haste compared to what simcraft calculates for you.

  14. #14
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    I hardly ever bother with FoF, I must admit. I try to squeeze it in where I can but overall I don't worry too much about it. I seem to do plenty of DPS regardless, so hey.
    ^ this. It is really difficult on some fights to squeeze in FoF. I like the ability and I want to use it and I am using it when I feel that I am able to, but a lot of times it is just better to ignore it in terms of dps.

  15. #15
    from what ive seen so far even with us losing a few %'s in mastery procs which would free us from GCD cap a bit im feeling Chi Wave will fill in the rotation and make FoF even less used. is any1 else feeling this way? NOTE THIS IS 5.2

  16. #16
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serendepityz View Post
    from what ive seen so far even with us losing a few %'s in mastery procs which would free us from GCD cap a bit im feeling Chi Wave will fill in the rotation and make FoF even less used. is any1 else feeling this way? NOTE THIS IS 5.2
    No, but a higher amount of haste will be preferred. FoF is still working out to be a damage increase.

  17. #17
    For me, FoF is more of a breather ability to use if I land myself in a situation where I have low energy for some reason. I play a crit-heavy 2h setup, so it does occasionally happen even with Energizing brew in mind. Works out really well, and I have come to enjoy this secondary failsafe style somehow. I hope we don't lose it, mechanics like that is great. Just look at how much today's dk suffers from the blood tap removal feelwise.

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