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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    Assuming optimal use;

    RJW Costs 2 chi and you'll fit 4 SCK into it's duration so you net 2 chi.

    Chi Torpedo takes 3 globals, you could cast 3 more SCKs in the same 12 second time frame.

    3>2, the fact RJW can help towards mana tea is irrelevant considering so much of it's budget is tied to using 88k mana. The only scenario you really would use RJW is when you can depend on a large number of adds being alive every 30 or so seconds as it procs eminence individually off each hit it does.

    This tier though, you're going to either want Xuen or Chi Torpedo.
    That's a pointless timeframe to do the analysis on, though. Just because you can make a comparison doesn't mean that it's a useful comparison to make. If I really need a ton of SCK spamming, I'm going to be SCK spamming whether I have RJW or not.

    Even granting the logic of the argument, compare that extra half a tea with the free healing that Chi Torpedo gives, and there's no comparison. Xuen is good, Chi Torpedo is good, RJW is not.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    That's a pointless timeframe to do the analysis on, though. Just because you can make a comparison doesn't mean that it's a useful comparison to make. If I really need a ton of SCK spamming, I'm going to be SCK spamming whether I have RJW or not.

    Even granting the logic of the argument, compare that extra half a tea with the free healing that Chi Torpedo gives, and there's no comparison. Xuen is good, Chi Torpedo is good, RJW is not.
    I know, it was just to show that even in that time frame where RJW is in effect and you use it optimally Chi Torpedo beats it straight out.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    That's a pointless timeframe to do the analysis on, though. Just because you can make a comparison doesn't mean that it's a useful comparison to make. If I really need a ton of SCK spamming, I'm going to be SCK spamming whether I have RJW or not.

    Even granting the logic of the argument, compare that extra half a tea with the free healing that Chi Torpedo gives, and there's no comparison. Xuen is good, Chi Torpedo is good, RJW is not.
    We all agree that RJW needs to be worked a bit since it doesn't really compete with CT in theory and especially practice. It's purely for the sake of debating to further increase our understanding of the spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    I know, it was just to show that even in that time frame where RJW is in effect and you use it optimally Chi Torpedo beats it straight out.
    I assume that on your previous example you took into consideration the channel time of SCK being 1.93 sec with 16.66%, the 1 gcd spent to 'dump' 2 chi midway through the duration of the buff (RJW only) and the 1 gcd spent to cast ReM applicable for both scenarios.

    As you mentioned previously, the net chi generated would have to be the chi generated by SCK minus the 2 chi consumed by RJW. However, I think that these 2 chi shouldn't be included since RJW can be used preemptively whilst an additional chi burst or uplift could prove unnecessary overhealing.

    Now for some very rough maths (assuming no overhealing during the 12 sec time window for fair comparison towards RJW):

    Estimated Healing done by CT(I looked at several logs of mine and they were approximately) = 300k
    Estimated Healing done by SCK = 149506.38

    With CT

    Healing done = 1,348,519.14
    Chi generated = 4 (1 from ReM, 3 from SCK)
    Chi banked = 4
    Chi spent = 0
    Mana spent = 83,850
    Mana tea = 0

    With RJW

    Healing done = 897,038.28 (by SCK) + 373,027.70 (from a Chi Burst to prevent wasting chi) = 1,270,065.98
    Chi generated = 5 (1 from ReM, 4 from SCK)
    Chi banked = 3
    Chi spent = 2 (for 1 chi burst)
    Mana spent = 105300
    Mana tea = 6000*1.2263 = 7357.8

    And this assumes that the 2 chi consumed to cast RJW wouldn't have done effective healing if cast on a uplift or chi burst. Especially in HPM, we have a clear winner lol

    RJW and CT need some more simulating since you can maintain a 24 sec uptime of RJW every min, whilst the assumption of CT is that you have 3 CT ready to use, which over the course of an encounter will not be the case since it has a 15 sec cd allowing up to 4 uses per min assuming it is used on cd without counting the 3 initial charges.

    EDIT: The conclusion is that given an exceptional situation such as the one above which will present the conditions for an optimal use of RJW, even then the throughput and HPM should be lower than using CT. Meaning, CT will be more valuable than RJW for encounters where they are considered for AoE healing.
    Last edited by Luqyolo; 2013-01-18 at 12:55 PM.

  4. #24
    I mean, for someone not adept at seeing what is happening in the above calculations...those two comparisons look very close. When in every case, they really couldn't be further apart. That is basically a worst case scenario for the chi torpedo player and the best case scenario for the RJW player.
    If you aren't using RJW and you wanted to burst heal at some specific time and you had the foresight to exactly chi dump to 2 chi to RJW, then you would also build up 4 chi to use chi burst or uplift. While your comparison shows someone who knows exactly how things should be done just how bad RJW is (worse in it's best case than CT in it's worst case), some might read it and see it as relatively comparable to CT.

    For clarification, CT has a 15s CD with celerity. Thats 2/30s. That means the bonus healing from RJW to SCK (which is 1/3 of the SCK healing, or 300k according to above calculations) is equal to 1 chi torpedo (again referencing previous numbers). Meanwhile, CT provides double the throughput for zero cost.

    The above four sentences basically sum up why CT dominates RJW.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    I mean, for someone not adept at seeing what is happening in the above calculations...those two comparisons look very close. When in every case, they really couldn't be further apart. That is basically a worst case scenario for the chi torpedo player and the best case scenario for the RJW player.
    If you aren't using RJW and you wanted to burst heal at some specific time and you had the foresight to exactly chi dump to 2 chi to RJW, then you would also build up 4 chi to use chi burst or uplift. While your comparison shows someone who knows exactly how things should be done just how bad RJW is (worse in it's best case than CT in it's worst case), some might read it and see it as relatively comparable to CT.

    For clarification, CT has a 15s CD with celerity. Thats 2/30s. That means the bonus healing from RJW to SCK (which is 1/3 of the SCK healing, or 300k according to above calculations) is equal to 1 chi torpedo (again referencing previous numbers). Meanwhile, CT provides double the throughput for zero cost.

    The above four sentences basically sum up why CT dominates RJW.
    Yes... thank you for the clarification. /facepalm

    This is just to consider all odds, but what I tried to demonstrate with those is exactly what you said, given an optimal use of RJW with favored conditions and comparing it to a not so favored use of CT, even then the throughput and especially HPM of CT should be higher given this particular situation. I'll edit that comment to reflect this.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Way of the Monk gives us 70% increased auto-attack damage as Mistweavers when using a 1-hander. 40% is for DW for wind and brew.

  7. #27
    Great guide! Has really helped me a lot. I just main switched to monk from resto druid, and had been having some issues figuring out exactly what to use to gen chi and when. I'm still a little confused on Jab however.

    I keep seeing "Jab Jab Uplift" referenced, and I know what that is due to watching Affiniti's stream throughout the expac so far, but I thought (and this is just what I heard from him before I even leveled the monk) that "Jab Jab Uplift" had been nerfed to the point of it no longer being viable? Is it still? Jab seems pretty expensive for just 1 chi.

    I do 10 man, so I understand that Soothing will be used more often than in 25 man, but I just don't really see where Jab fits in over soothing unless you NEED the chi really badly. Sure, Soothing is unreliable, and that sucks, but I've had plenty of times where 1 soothing cast gens easily 4 chi if not more, for like 2% mana overall. Which is way better than 4% for 1.

    Also, with Chi Brew, is it necessary to use it on CD? Is it not preferential to wait and use it for emergency situations?

    Lastly, with SCK, it is extremely expensive, especially at my low gear level where I don't have much spirit. Is SCK something that I'll work more into healing at higher gear levels? Or does it remain a "only if you need to uplift but can still stack heal while genning the chi to do so" thing?

    Lastly Lastly, with Chi Wave vs Chi Burst, is it ever preferential to take Chi Burst over Chi Wave in 10? I feel like there isn't a time where Burst > Uplift, even when stacked, yet there are times where Chi Wave could A) hit spread people, or B) hit 1 or 2 people for a pretty decent amount, making it a semi-single target heal. Not to mention the ridonkulous nerf to Chi Burst in 5.2 via the CD, is it better to learn to Chi Wave now?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Aoroc View Post
    Great guide! Has really helped me a lot. I just main switched to monk from resto druid, and had been having some issues figuring out exactly what to use to gen chi and when. I'm still a little confused on Jab however.

    I keep seeing "Jab Jab Uplift" referenced, and I know what that is due to watching Affiniti's stream throughout the expac so far, but I thought (and this is just what I heard from him before I even leveled the monk) that "Jab Jab Uplift" had been nerfed to the point of it no longer being viable? Is it still? Jab seems pretty expensive for just 1 chi.

    I do 10 man, so I understand that Soothing will be used more often than in 25 man, but I just don't really see where Jab fits in over soothing unless you NEED the chi really badly. Sure, Soothing is unreliable, and that sucks, but I've had plenty of times where 1 soothing cast gens easily 4 chi if not more, for like 2% mana overall. Which is way better than 4% for 1.

    Also, with Chi Brew, is it necessary to use it on CD? Is it not preferential to wait and use it for emergency situations?

    Lastly, with SCK, it is extremely expensive, especially at my low gear level where I don't have much spirit. Is SCK something that I'll work more into healing at higher gear levels? Or does it remain a "only if you need to uplift but can still stack heal while genning the chi to do so" thing?

    Lastly Lastly, with Chi Wave vs Chi Burst, is it ever preferential to take Chi Burst over Chi Wave in 10? I feel like there isn't a time where Burst > Uplift, even when stacked, yet there are times where Chi Wave could A) hit spread people, or B) hit 1 or 2 people for a pretty decent amount, making it a semi-single target heal. Not to mention the ridonkulous nerf to Chi Burst in 5.2 via the CD, is it better to learn to Chi Wave now?
    Hello, thank you for the kind words And forgive me, for I may have confused you even more with this guide since I may have fallen into the trap of writing some sections exclusively from a 25 man PoV.

    With respect to the "Jab Jab Uplift" combo, I remember hearing Affiniti's comment about this and he was right to say that it was nerfed, but it isn't by any means 'no longer viable', you can still use this. Basically, the argument is that Blizzard's intention wasn't for us to simply generate chi with a previously cheap jab (used to cost 9k mana), and dump these chi on a uplift which had at least 9 players with ReM before the nerf. Back then, mistweavers were simply put overpowered in 25 man since our burst capabilities with cheap chi generation combined with uplifts on 18+ targets were tremendous. In 10 man however, because of the limited number of players in the raid, mistweavers were balanced and had reasonable throughput compared to other healers.

    It's logical that you will be channeling SM more often in a 10 man raid since the responsibility of keeping tanks up will ultimately fall to the 2 or 3 healers used together, but if you're going to need to do uplift healing you'll probably want to use jab instead of SM, because you can't expect SM to generate chi according to your needs.

    The relatively high mp5 value of chi brew assumes the player uses it on cooldown, which is very often not possible or optimal. Unless you can predict that there will be an incoming wave of increased damage which will need higher throughput then delay its use for a while, if not then don't hesitate using it even if you're going to dump them on BoK or tiger palms. It is a throughput CD, but it is also an mp5 talent.

    I can imagine SCK's limited use in 10 man but if you can meet the conditions where 6 or more players need to be healed then it will be effective but it also depends on the situation. In this scenario, if you will be constantly needing to AoE heal then SCK seems appropriate since the HPM value of SCK > SCK > uplift will be higher than jab > jab > uplift but this also depends on the number of players that have ReM, but in 10 man this is always true. Yes, more gear will definitely aid the cause but it is recommended that you firstly obtain a satisfactory amount of spirit so that mana doesn't restrict your throughput in this sense.

    Chi wave will ultimately have a higher value in 10 man as opposed to 25 man, but it depends on the encounter. There are too many variables to just give spells a label, but generally if you can SCK effectively then chi burst will probably be useful as well. Other than that, chi wave's 'smart' heals have its value and it's easy to use, just use it on a player close to an enemy (tank or melee most likely)!

    Thank you for posting your 10 man PoV, I will edit some paragraphs to include a 10 man perspective.

  9. #29
    Actually, at 8 ReM targets in my gear, jabx2/uplift is more mana efficient than SCKx2/uplift. Not to mention SCK generally has significantly higher overhealing than uplift, meaning that even at 7 targets it's likely more mana efficient. Whether this holds at lower ilvl's I'm not sure.

    In most times of burst, you'll be able to TFT and uplift will > chi burst. And for 5.2, chi wave is going to dominate chi burst in effectiveness. So, it wouldn't be a bad idea to learn chi wave now. However, there are some fights or situations where chi burst would win (depending on raid comp, of course.) So whether you should learn chi wave now or not depends more on how important progression is and which fights your on.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by zonde View Post

    With respect to the "Jab Jab Uplift" combo, I remember hearing Affiniti's comment about this and he was right to say that it was nerfed, but it isn't by any means 'no longer viable', you can still use this. Basically, the argument is that Blizzard's intention wasn't for us to simply generate chi with a previously cheap jab (used to cost 9k mana), and dump these chi on a uplift which had at least 9 players with ReM before the nerf. Back then, mistweavers were simply put overpowered in 25 man since our burst capabilities with cheap chi generation combined with uplifts on 18+ targets were tremendous. In 10 man however, because of the limited number of players in the raid, mistweavers were balanced and had reasonable throughput compared to other healers.

    It's logical that you will be channeling SM more often in a 10 man raid since the responsibility of keeping tanks up will ultimately fall to the 2 or 3 healers used together, but if you're going to need to do uplift healing you'll probably want to use jab instead of SM, because you can't expect SM to generate chi according to your needs.
    So for example, let's say people just took raid damage, but it's not something that has to be Uplifted right now and then. Like I could start a SoM channel to see if I get a proc chi real fast, and if I don't within 2-3 seconds, then Jab and Uplift? Assuming I already had 1 chi from ReM within the last 4-6 seconds, or so, it seems to make sense to ATTEMPT to get a chi proc real fast before deciding to Jab. I guess that hypothetically changes Jab to 6% mana instead of 4% if I fail, but I doubt you'd fail often enough to notice a undesired difference, but succeed often enough to notice a preferential difference. Maybe not though, I'd have to just get a feel from trying.

  11. #31
    The Patient Jake5467's Avatar
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    I think something worth noting is Xuen is quite powerful when used in a cleaving situation. His chain lightning hits up to 3 targets and does quite insane damage (which then converts to healing through Eminence). I haven't raided since before Christmas but I found he was my favourite pick in 10 man raids. It can really help on those heroic progressions where you are having under 5% wipes. Just something I thought may be mentioning in the guide for the newer players who weren't aware.

    Edit: Forgot to say, fantastic guide. Great job! Looking forward to reading up on some opinions on 5.2 changes to T30 talents and what not. Haven't looked into them myself. Keep up the good work!

  12. #32
    If I could do a suggestion, there should be a few more indications of pro/cons of using a talent depending if you are in a 10 or 25 man raid.

    I have yet to see any usefulness of Chi Torpedo or Chi Burst in 10 man, while they shine in 25. They obviously have their niche, but with fewer targets to heal, they are not as strong.

    Also make sure to tell people they need to macro chi torpedo to remove stampeding roar. Somehow roll works, but chi torpedo doesn't.

    And lastly, mastery enchant to gloves is more expensive for absolutely nothing since you'll reforge anyways, I don't see why people would not get the haste one. Maybe for people who can't reach the softcap only.

    But great work, about time somebody updated that. Obviously, everything is debatable with a new class, but my biggest concern is the obvious difference between 10 and 25 and I really think it should be part of the guide, because a huge majority of the people raid in 10, but maybe of the best ranked who visit this site raid in 25 and it doesn't always reflect the reality.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 08:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aoroc View Post

    I keep seeing "Jab Jab Uplift" referenced, and I know what that is due to watching Affiniti's stream throughout the expac so far, but I thought (and this is just what I heard from him before I even leveled the monk) that "Jab Jab Uplift" had been nerfed to the point of it no longer being viable? Is it still? Jab seems pretty expensive for just 1 chi.

    I do 10 man, so I understand that Soothing will be used more often than in 25 man, but I just don't really see where Jab fits in over soothing unless you NEED the chi really badly. Sure, Soothing is unreliable, and that sucks, but I've had plenty of times where 1 soothing cast gens easily 4 chi if not more, for like 2% mana overall. Which is way better than 4% for 1.
    Jabx2+Uplift is the only way to have steady aoe healing.. any other chi generator is based on rng.. even in 10 man, it's your main rotation on most fights.

    Soothing Mist is really for low damage time when you are mostly healing the tank imo. Plus the big issue there is you generate mana tea a lot less than by doing Jabx2+Uplift which makes you a lot more vulnerable to your mana pool. I personally use soothing mist only when I focus somebody, if it's raid healing, I'll go with the jab rotation.
    Macphisto, discipline priest | Karuzo, mistweaver monk

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    If I could do a suggestion, there should be a few more indications of pro/cons of using a talent depending if you are in a 10 or 25 man raid.

    I have yet to see any usefulness of Chi Torpedo or Chi Burst in 10 man, while they shine in 25. They obviously have their niche, but with fewer targets to heal, they are not as strong.

    Also make sure to tell people they need to macro chi torpedo to remove stampeding roar. Somehow roll works, but chi torpedo doesn't.

    And lastly, mastery enchant to gloves is more expensive for absolutely nothing since you'll reforge anyways, I don't see why people would not get the haste one. Maybe for people who can't reach the softcap only.

    But great work, about time somebody updated that. Obviously, everything is debatable with a new class, but my biggest concern is the obvious difference between 10 and 25 and I really think it should be part of the guide, because a huge majority of the people raid in 10, but maybe of the best ranked who visit this site raid in 25 and it doesn't always reflect the reality.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 08:16 AM ----------



    Jabx2+Uplift is the only way to have steady aoe healing.. any other chi generator is based on rng.. even in 10 man, it's your main rotation on most fights.

    Soothing Mist is really for low damage time when you are mostly healing the tank imo. Plus the big issue there is you generate mana tea a lot less than by doing Jabx2+Uplift which makes you a lot more vulnerable to your mana pool. I personally use soothing mist only when I focus somebody, if it's raid healing, I'll go with the jab rotation.
    If I could upvote this post I would, but I can't, so I'm going to quote it again. Specifying for 10vs25m would be a big benefit for the guide. I would agree that xuen in 10m is better, and probably chi wave, oh and I make a lot more use of HS in 10s. They're different environments to heal in, as for most classes. Though really I suppose the only difference is talent selection and slightly more tank healing, but talent selection could use some specifications for 10vs25.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    If I could upvote this post I would, but I can't, so I'm going to quote it again. Specifying for 10vs25m would be a big benefit for the guide. I would agree that xuen in 10m is better, and probably chi wave, oh and I make a lot more use of HS in 10s. They're different environments to heal in, as for most classes. Though really I suppose the only difference is talent selection and slightly more tank healing, but talent selection could use some specifications for 10vs25.
    I completely agree with you and Spotnick. When writing the guide I did not consider all the differences between 10 man and 25 man and since it will mostly be viewed by mistweavers in 10 man groups I will work on it ASAP, forgive me!

  15. #35
    a short question about Power Strikes: It says it triggers off Jab, Soothing and Crackling. I've used Acension until now, because of mana, but seeing that Chi is so valueable to us and expensive to gain, I thought I would try PS. anway: it doesn't seem to procc of Soothing, is that an outdated tooltipp, or a bug?
    and if it would procc, would it procc off of the first tick, or the first time Soothing did actually generate a Chi and double that?
    (I know I could probably test that with Crackling, but wow is currently not available to me, maybe somebody knows anyway)

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    a short question about Power Strikes: It says it triggers off Jab, Soothing and Crackling. I've used Acension until now, because of mana, but seeing that Chi is so valueable to us and expensive to gain, I thought I would try PS. anway: it doesn't seem to procc of Soothing, is that an outdated tooltipp, or a bug?
    and if it would procc, would it procc off of the first tick, or the first time Soothing did actually generate a Chi and double that?
    (I know I could probably test that with Crackling, but wow is currently not available to me, maybe somebody knows anyway)
    Interesting question. I tried it out with soothing mist and it procs from the first tick assuming it's not on CD, so it's independent of the chi generated. The same applies for CJL. It can't be an outdated tooltip, SM and CJL were added to the possible abilities able to proc Power Strikes in 5.1. :P

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by zonde View Post
    Interesting question. I tried it out with soothing mist and it procs from the first tick assuming it's not on CD, so it's independent of the chi generated. The same applies for CJL. It can't be an outdated tooltip, SM and CJL were added to the possible abilities able to proc Power Strikes in 5.1. :P
    okey thanks! just went ingame to double check that.
    what is weird, is that it doesnt seem to procc if you channel soothing on yourself, but it works fine on others (also npc etc). is that just me, or are you experienceing the same phenomenon?

  18. #38
    I must admit there have been times that I've had the Power Strikes buff up during a fight, and then my next Soothing proc only gives me one Chi. That being said I tend to use Soothing so rarely in raids that I haven't really looked into it.

    EDIT: I just tested it in town and self-channeling Soothing wouldn't consume the PS buff OR give me the extra Chi. It seemed to be consistently working channeling it on a friend though. I'd say your theory is sound.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    okey thanks! just went ingame to double check that.
    what is weird, is that it doesnt seem to procc if you channel soothing on yourself, but it works fine on others (also npc etc). is that just me, or are you experienceing the same phenomenon?
    I can confirm this as well. This is awkward

  20. #40
    This is not a nerf!

    You become adept in the ways of the Mistweaver, amplifying three of your abilities. Blackout Kick five of your abilities. Crackling Jade Lightning Damage increased by 100%. Tiger Palm Damage increased by 100%. Blackout Kick Blackout Kick also hits 4 additional nearby targets for 50% damage When you Blackout Kick, you gain Serpent's Zeal causing you to heal nearby injured targets equal to 25% of your auto-attack damage. Stacks up to 2 times. Surging Mist When you Tiger Palm, you gain Vital Mists reducing the cast time and mana cost of your next Surging Mist by 20%. Stacks up to 5times. Lasts 30 sec. Spinning Crane Kick While channeling Spinning Crane Kick, you also heal nearby injured allies for 2,809 every 0.75 sec for 2.2 sec. Healing yourself does not count for Chi generation. Monk - Mistweaver Spec.
    Basically, single target we will now stack SZ twice as normal, but then we will juggle;

    Muscle Memory (New) When you successfully Jab or damage at least 3 enemies with Spinning Crane Kick, you gain Muscle Memory, increasing the damage of your next Tiger Palm or Blackout Kick by 200%. Monk - Mistweaver Spec.
    With Tiger Palm (as it now does double damage, it takes over blackout kick on single target). Blackout Kick will be reserved to situations where there's more than one target and for keeping SZ up.

    tl:dr; THIS IS A (pretty big) BUFF, NOT A NERF
    Last edited by Dumbfoundead; 2013-01-23 at 08:13 PM.

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