Boy... this makes me really eager to stop advocating mens rights...

[Ebildays]

You know from whom the biggest outcry against the Sicilian mafia came? The honest Italian americans who didn't want to be associated with it.

Yes, but the mafia is not the same as child support. People see the mafia as something bad and no so much with child support, this could be due to the press that child support gets. You hear alot about deadbeat dads but nothing about deadbeat moms.

the mens rights movement is concerned with abandoning children

Look at the quote above, that is the image that you want to change.

Would someone like darenyon go long with the option to allow men to opt out of legal responiblity before sex was even had? Knowing ahead of time would give women even more options in reguards to if they want to have sex with a man and also allow them to think about what options they have if birth control fails knowing the man will not be a part of her and her childs life, at this point there is no child so no abandoning.

so they want to abandon them instead because "it wasnt my choice, i had no control over any of it."
then they say "give us equal rights to children because its my kid too, i had a part."

these completely contradict each other.

No, they don't because there are different types of men. Some men want their children, they want them to be born and to be apart of their lives.
It is wrong to try and lump all men together as someone who does not want their children. It is no better then the people her lumping all women together trying to steal men's seed.....but that would make a good porno....just saying.

[starlord]

Would someone like darenyon go long with the option to allow men to opt out of legal responiblity before sex was even had? Knowing ahead of time would give women even more options in reguards to if they want to have sex with a man and also allow them to think about what options they have if birth control fails knowing the man will not be a part of her and her childs life, at this point there is no child so no abandoning.

thats really what everyone should be doing in any case. (Discussing the matter beforehand). but they think "it wont happen to me", and then blame the other party when it does. i dont see a good way to do it without having a pocket lawyer or something. but if it could be figured out, at least it would end all this crap about "i had no choice!". probably not though.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

i must have missed it then.

and since men cant undo the childs potential existence, they cant get the same choice women have.
so they want to abandon them instead because "it wasnt my choice, i had no control over any of it."
then they say "give us equal rights to children because its my kid too, i had a part."

these completely contradict each other.

Not really. Comparing those two different men with different wants is illogical. This is the same as saying women aren't allowed to keep children because some get abortions. Its illogical.

Again, currents laws are archaic and sexist. They were based around a society where women didn't work or go to school, and normally got sole custody because they birthed the child, and were the common care givers at the time. Since Divorce was becoming a much more common thing, LAWS WERE MADE to reflect this to protect those women that devoted their lives to children and home.

Two people both want a separation, and to give the women and child a better chance at a good life, they made child support laws.

Since then someone huge has changed in terms of choice: Abortions became legal and much more common. With abortions, females got an option out of an unwanted child. Men, still, do not. Barring rape, both parties go into the act of sex know the risk. If the female isn't at a time in their life where they are read for, or economically stable enough to have a child, they have an option out of this. Men do not. Men are at the whims of the female. Her choice will directly change his life. This is unfair, and sexist.

Upon finding out the female is pregnant, the male should be allowed to opt out. It is then her choice to keep it or not. If she decides to keep it, its 100% her choice, even knowing the male will not be there.

Unfair, sexist, archaic laws.

[starlord]

Not really. Comparing those two different men with different wants is illogical. This is the same as saying women aren't allowed to keep children because some get abortions. Its illogical.

you cant legislate on the basis of "men have no responsibility for children", and then legislate that "men have equal responsibility for children." abortions are not about children, they are about bodily autonomy. the right to choose what surgical procedures you can undergo. a closer analogue would be a mans right to be snipped.

Again, currents laws are archaic and sexist. They were based around a society where women didn't work or go to school, and normally got sole custody because they birthed the child, and were the common care givers at the time. Since Divorce was becoming a much more common thing, LAWS WERE MADE to reflect this to protect those women that devoted their lives to children and home.

Two people both want a separation, and to give the women and child a better chance at a good life, they made child support laws.

Since then someone huge has changed in terms of choice: Abortions became legal and much more common. With abortions, females got an option out of an unwanted child. Men, still, do not. Barring rape, both parties go into the act of sex know the risk. If the female isn't at a time in their life where they are read for, or economically stable enough to have a child, they have an option out of this. Men do not. Men are at the whims of the female. Her choice will directly change his life. This is unfair, and sexist.

Upon finding out the female is pregnant, the male should be allowed to opt out. It is then her choice to keep it or not. If she decides to keep it, its 100% her choice, even knowing the male will not be there.

Unfair, sexist, archaic laws.

except that the laws apply to women as well. my own mom had to pay child support, and she even skipped out now and then.
is there a bias against men? sure, but thats more about perception than specific legislation.

[Ebildays]

thats really what everyone should be doing in any case. (Discussing the matter beforehand). but they think "it wont happen to me", and then blame the other party when it does. i dont see a good way to do it without having a pocket lawyer or something. but if it could be figured out, at least it would end all this crap about "i had no choice!". probably not though.

I was thinking along the lines of letting clinics or doctor's offices hold something like consent forums that would be filled out in the office or clinic. They would have to be signed by both parties and a witness which would be a staff member. Both parties would get a copy of the contract and the orignal would be kept on file ( just don't know where >.<). The setting is good because it is in a neutral place were people cannot say they were bullied into signing and there is a witness to the fact. The drawn for clinics and doctor's offices to do it would be that they could charge a small fee for doing the service.

[starlord]

I was thinking along the lines of letting clinics or doctor's offices hold something like consent forums that would be filled out in the office or clinic. They would have to be signed by both parties and a witness which would be a staff member. Both parties would get a copy of the contract and the orignal would be kept on file ( just don't know where >.<). The setting is good because it is in a neutral place were people cannot say they were bullied into signing and there is a witness to the fact. The drawn for clinics and doctor's offices to do it would be that they could charge a small fee for doing the service.

i guess that could work. and maybe introduce a condom tax to provide financial aid

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

you cant legislate on the basis of "men have no responsibility for children", and then legislate that "men have equal responsibility for children." abortions are not about children, they are about bodily autonomy. the right to choose what surgical procedures you can undergo. a closer analogue would be a mans right to be snipped.

except that the laws apply to women as well. my own mom had to pay child support, and she even skipped out now and then.
is there a bias against men? sure, but thats more about perception than specific legislation.

Abortions are 100% about children. You don't get them for fun. You get them to avoid children. Men do not have that choice. Stop using strawmen. Men should have the same right to want/avoid children as women. You can keep using fallacies all you want, but it won't make sense at all. You're just warping things. Its not about "all men don't want responsibilities" Its more about "men should be afforded and given the same rights and choices regarding their own fates as women"

Is there a bias against men? Yes, that includes both legislation and perception.

[Deleted]

Its the woman who having the baby's body, she should have more say in the matter of abortions or not. If it was the man carrying the baby i'd feel the opposite.

[starlord]

Abortions are 100% about children. You don't get them for fun. You get them to avoid children. Men do not have that choice. Stop using strawmen. Men should have the same right to want/avoid children as women. You can keep using fallacies all you want, but it won't make sense at all. You're just warping things. Its not about "all men don't want responsibilities" Its more about "men should be afforded and given the same rights and choices regarding their own fates as women"

Is there a bias against men? Yes, that includes both legislation and perception.

what youre not getting is that men already do have exactly the same rights as women in that regard. men can decide what surgeries to have on their genitals same as women. women do not have the option to "financially abandon" a child.

if you think that should be an option, fine. but dont scream about inequality.

[Raiju]

you cant legislate on the basis of "men have no responsibility for children", and then legislate that "men have equal responsibility for children." abortions are not about children, they are about bodily autonomy. the right to choose what surgical procedures you can undergo. a closer analogue would be a mans right to be snipped.

No, not in the slightest. An abortion is exactly what it is - getting rid of the kid before it's born. There is a varying cutoff point that women have depending on country where they are allowed to abort WITHOUT medical reason. This is usually 16-18 weeks. A man should be able to claim no affiliation with the child at the same point, but often they can't. Especially when married. A women can make themselves sterile which would be compared to a vasectomy, an abortion is nothing of the sort.

except that the laws apply to women as well. my own mom had to pay child support, and she even skipped out now and then.
is there a bias against men? sure, but thats more about perception than specific legislation.

Yes, your one anecdote means its equal and it isn't usually seen as a lost case if a man even tries to defend his rights in terms of paying child support where it isn't needed (linked case with replaced father figure)

Since the OP is about the UK, and personally I'm also from the UK:
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Abortio...roduction.aspx

24 weeks cut off point, 2 doctors to agree on damage to either physical or mental state (i.e. stressful time right now, unstable relationship, other personal issues - G.P. + local hospital doctor and you are set)

[Ebildays]

i guess that could work. and maybe introduce a condom tax to provide financial aid

No, we want them to wear condoms, beer tax!


Instead of talking about what we can do to make things better for both men and women we are going to get in an abortion debate?

[Deleted]

Its the woman who having the baby's body, she should have more say in the matter of abortions or not. If it was the man carrying the baby i'd feel the opposite.

Yes, that's why the man can't actually force the woman to have an abortion. He can only "abort" his financial responsibility. The woman can still give birth to the child but the child will not have a father (atleast not the biological one). That's the benefit the woman gets for carrying the baby.

[starlord]

No, not in the slightest. An abortion is exactly what it is - getting rid of the kid before it's born. There is a varying cutoff point that women have depending on country where they are allowed to abort WITHOUT medical reason. This is usually 16-18 weeks. A man should be able to claim no affiliation with the child at the same point, but often they can't. Especially when married. A women can make themselves sterile which would be compared to a vasectomy, an abortion is nothing of the sort.

they are both surgeries concerning the genitals, which is what the whole right is about. the fact that women can do it after the fact is because their genitals are different is irrelevant. its not sexism that women cant get a vasectomy because they dont have the organs for it. its not sexism that men cant get abortions because they dont have the organs for it.

Yes, your one anecdote means its equal and it isn't usually seen as a lost case if a man even tries to defend his rights in terms of paying child support where it isn't needed (linked case with replaced father figure)

no its fact that women must pay child support. i said the courts were often biased as well, which should be changed (hint, dont start with the argument that men have no say in creating children).

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

what youre not getting is that men already do have exactly the same rights as women in that regard. men can decide what surgeries to have on their genitals same as women. women do not have the option to "financially abandon" a child.

if you think that should be an option, fine. but dont scream about inequality.

No, getting a surgery to make yourself sterile is not the same as any type of abortion. No, men do not have the same rights. Yes, it is inequality.

Women get more choices regarding their own income.

[starlord]

Yes, that's why the man can't actually force the woman to have an abortion. He can only "abort" his financial responsibility. The woman can still give birth to the child but the child will not have a father (atleast not the biological one). That's the benefit the woman gets for carrying the baby.

no, its different. if men should be able to "financially abort", so should women. i dont see how that benefits anyone but lazy deadbeats of both genders, but there you go.

[mistuhbull]

they are both surgeries concerning the genitals, which is what the whole right is about. the fact that women can do it after the fact is because their genitals are different is irrelevant. its not sexism that women cant get a vasectomy because they dont have the organs for it. its not sexism that men cant get abortions because they dont have the organs for it.

no its fact that women must pay child support. i said the courts were often biased as well, which should be changed (hint, dont start with the argument that men have no say in creating children).

No women can't get a vasectomy, they can however get their "tubes tied" which is an equivalent procedure. There is no equivalency for men in regards to abortion/adoption (oh yes, there is that option too if the woman cannot support it on their own, which seems to have been woefully forgotten in this topic)

[Raiju]

Why do I bother, at about page 10 I was convinced Darenyon was possibly trolling or trying to sympathize with another POV but this is ridiculous.. how dense can you be to equate an abortion to sterilization...

@Mistuhbull how does one whom struggles to even have custody of a child have the right to put it up for adoption?

[mistuhbull]

Why do I bother, at about page 10 I was convinced Darenyon was possibly trolling or trying to sympathize with another POV but this is ridiculous.. how dense can you be to equate an abortion to sterilization...

@Mistuhbull how does one whom struggles to even have custody of a child have the right to put it up for adoption?

Last I checked the mother can do that once she's been "abandoned" by the father.

People keep asserting the only options an "abandoned" mother has is abortion or to raise the child herself in a life of poverty and squalor, when that isn't so.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

no, its different. if men should be able to "financially abort", so should women. i dont see how that benefits anyone but lazy deadbeats of both genders, but there you go.

Thats 100% fine if the male wants to keep the child, but the woman does not. No one is forcing anything on anyone in that scenario.

[starlord]

No, getting a surgery to make yourself sterile is not the same as any type of abortion. No, men do not have the same rights. Yes, it is inequality.

you are confusing "rights" with "the same surgeries". the right is to decide what you can do with your body. everyone can decide what to do with their penises or vaginas.

Women get more choices regarding their own income.

they get choices regarding their vaginas.