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  1. #941
    WHY- They don't want a baby.
    Why is because they have bodily autonomy. They can abort because its their body. A man's body is not at stake. His bodily autonomy is not an issue. Why should he have the right that a woman derives from bodily autonomy?

    Equal rights are for equal situations. Pregnancy is an inherently unequal position.
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    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  2. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Again, this is bullshit. You made decisions that if you did not make a child would not result. You're just as culpable for the situation. Whether they get an abortion is the woman's choice. Whether the child is created is the result of several decisions made by both parties with a change in any choice made resulting in no child.
    It's in no way bullshit. Every child born is a result of the mother's decision to not abort.

    There are no two ways around this fact.

  3. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    i really dont want to go find the exact quotes, some made by yourself (though the rape one is word for word).
    he had a choice. his liberty also ends where his childs begins. thats why we have laws about not abandoning or sbusing children.

    you have yet to demonstrate how they dont apply to both. if i use my right to free speech to argue on forums and someone else uses it for writing the news it doesnt mean the law is not applying to me equally since i dont write news.
    That has to be the worst hypothetical I have heard in this whole thread, and it does not make any sense to the current topic.

    Again, you twisted many if not all of those "quotes" to further your own agenda. Good try.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  4. #944
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    What? No its not. We do it all the time.
    Doing something all the time does not make it right. Likewise, there are many cases where it isn't done; the majority of governments in the world electing not to submit to terrorist demands/blackmail efforts for example where the well-being of a hostage is at stake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    dem bitches love abortions.
    Can't recall having said anything about women loving abortions, simply that it is one of several get-out-of-jail-free cards they have at their disposal, and one they have full control over.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGravemind View Post
    Wanting stricter immigration policies is predicated upon highly racist views, undoubtedly.

  5. #945
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Why is because they have bodily autonomy. They can abort because its their body. A man's body is not at stake. His bodily autonomy is not an issue. Why should he have the right that a woman derives from bodily autonomy?

    Equal rights are for equal situations. Pregnancy is an inherently unequal position.
    No, a womans choice/livelihood should not take precedence over a mans just because she is a woman. What part of fucked up gender bias don't you get? A mans liberty, life, and money should not be taken away just because a woman feels like raising a child on her own. She knows the risk, she knows she has two other options.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  6. #946
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    If the guy does not want a kid and provides adequate notice so she can make an informed decision there is no good reason to force him to finance her choice.
    Except for the fact that he made the baby (well half of it)?

    Guys have an opt out, it's called not having sex with a person you don't have an understanding with/are positive you are on the same page about the issues with. If you're not sure of the outcome and choose to take the risk anyway then the results are going to be partially your responsibility. Why should the rights of children be infringed because guys don't want to be more careful about who they sleep with?
    Last edited by Windfury; 2013-01-19 at 03:47 AM.

  7. #947
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Equal rights are for equal situations. Pregnancy is an inherently unequal position.
    Sure, no one's disputing that women should have full bodily autonomy regarding abortion/pregnancy etc. The point that's being made is on behalf of the not unreasonable desire that a woman's bodily autonomy should not affect a man's financial autonomy.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGravemind View Post
    Wanting stricter immigration policies is predicated upon highly racist views, undoubtedly.

  8. #948
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Not at all, women should be free to have full autonomy over their bodies; but it's a slippery slope to put bodily autonomy over fiscal/material autonomy. The matter however is relatively simple;

    Women hold all the get-out-of-jail-free cards; Women, like men, know the consequences and likelihoods of conception during sex, yet are at liberty to employ measures such as the morning-after pill/abortion/adoption etc once the child is born. They hold all the cards over the child, and all the cards over the man involved, regardless of the motives/actions that lead to the conception.

    Men however, are at the mercy of women; his financial well-being subject to what the woman decides. Should she keep the child, it doesn't matter what he wants; the woman if she wanted, might simply abort or forfeit the child, whereas the man is subject to law regardless of what he desires.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 03:36 AM ----------



    I can't recall you having stated that in these cases the father should be absolved of responsibility to the child he did not want and whose conception he had no say in, however.
    if he was raped, then you might have a point. thats not been the focus of the thread however.
    p
    Nope, the women have abortion and adoption at their disposal; the man has nothing.
    whoever has full custody has adoption at their disposal. women are financially responsible for any existing children they have, same as men. doesnt matter if the father tricked her and ran off or not.

  9. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Except for the fact that he made the baby (well half of it)?

    Guys have an opt out, it's called not having sex with a person you don't have an understanding with. If you're not sure of the outcome and choose to take the risk anyway then the results are going to be partially your responsibility. Why should the rights of children be infringed because guys don't want to be more careful about who they sleep with?
    I was hoping someone would chip in with this.

    Women: Abortion/Adoption/Keep the child

    Men: Chastity/Abstinence/Economic responsibilities to the child regardless of his views/desires or the circumstances surrounding its conception

    Sound fair? Yeah, no. It's called having your cake and eating it.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGravemind View Post
    Wanting stricter immigration policies is predicated upon highly racist views, undoubtedly.

  10. #950
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    "if a woman pokes holes in a mans condom, thats just plain rape"
    I'm still hung up on this one. Why isn't this wrong when their partner deliberately sabotaged their birth control?

  11. #951
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Except for the fact that he made the baby (well half of it)?

    Guys have an opt out, it's called not having sex with a person you don't have an understanding with. If you're not sure of the outcome and choose to take the risk anyway then the results are going to be partially your responsibility. Why should the rights of children be infringed because guys don't want to be more careful about who they sleep with?
    You keep wanting to blame the guy. No complaints about women who don't at least consider their wishes. No, it's all the guys fault.

    Anyway, I'm not buying it. In our hypothetical scenario, the woman is given ample time to make an informed decision on whether or not to abort. If she decides not to, she accepts the burden of caring for the child herself. Is that simple.

    You can provide no compelling reason a man should bear a burden he doesn't want if the woman's wishes conflict with his.

  12. #952
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    That has to be the worst hypothetical I have heard in this whole thread, and it does not make any sense to the current topic.

    Again, you twisted many if not all of those "quotes" to further your own agenda. Good try.
    i didnt twist a thing. you said yourself that since women can get abortions, that means men have unequal rights.
    you either dont know what rights that stems from, or are.. twisting things to support our arguments.

    its a fact that there is no "right to not have children".

  13. #953
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    This popped up in the news and I felt it relevant. Alright, it's the Dailymail, but makes interesting reading...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...reavement.html

  14. #954
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    ts a fact that there is no "right to not have children".
    There is if you're a woman, and it manifests itself in abortion and adoption.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGravemind View Post
    Wanting stricter immigration policies is predicated upon highly racist views, undoubtedly.

  15. #955
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    I'm still hung up on this one. Why isn't this wrong when their partner deliberately sabotaged their birth control?
    it is wrong, but its not rape. thats an exaggeration.

  16. #956
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    It's in no way bullshit. Every child born is a result of the mother's decision to not abort.

    There are no two ways around this fact.
    Then every child born is also the result of a man's decision to have sex.
    No, a womans choice/livelihood should not take precedence over a mans just because she is a woman.
    Everyone who has to bear a child should not have to surrender their bodily autonomy to do so. As soon as a man has to bear a child he can abort as well.

    Sure, no one's disputing that women should have full bodily autonomy regarding abortion/pregnancy etc. The point that's being made is on behalf of the not unreasonable desire that a woman's bodily autonomy should not affect a man's financial autonomy.
    Ignoring the fact of course that there is a child that needs to be cared for. Your desire to not support your child is trumped by the child's need to be supported.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  17. #957
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    There is if you're a woman, and it manifests itself in abortion and adoption.
    no. the right to bodily autonomy can manifest itself as abortion, and the ability to decide whats best for your child manifests itself as adoption.

  18. #958
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    it is wrong, but its not rape. thats an exaggeration.
    Well in the case of Assange wasn't it it was deemed rape because the woman wanted sex using a condom and he refused to use the condom? If that was how it was viewed wouldn't it apply both ways?

    Then every child born is also the result of a man's decision to have sex.
    Unless a man was raped or the sperm was from a sperm donor, which would mean that statement isn't true.
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  19. #959
    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Except for the fact that he made the baby (well half of it)?

    Guys have an opt out, it's called not having sex with a person you don't have an understanding with/are positive you are on the same page about the issues with. If you're not sure of the outcome and choose to take the risk anyway then the results are going to be partially your responsibility. Why should the rights of children be infringed because guys don't want to be more careful about who they sleep with?
    The same could be said about women and abortion. Why is the child being infringed upon because women aren't careful with who they sleep with?

    I will save some time and skip to the part where you say "the child is unborn and just a fetus, the woman wouldn't be infringing upon or killing the child" ... okay, the same applies to a many wanting to opt out, the baby isn't alive, so he isn't infringing on anything.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  20. #960
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    it is wrong, but its not rape. thats an exaggeration.
    That's where we'll disagree. The main, underlying theme of rape in my eyes is sex on grounds one did not want.

    If a woman is overpowered and her attacker has sex with her forcibly, that's rape; it was sex, but not on the grounds that the woman involved wanted.

    If a woman tells her partner that she has taken certain contraceptive measures and either does not tell him that she has tampered with his/her contraceptive measures, or tells him she hasn't that's rape; it is sex, but not on the grounds that the man involved wanted.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGravemind View Post
    Wanting stricter immigration policies is predicated upon highly racist views, undoubtedly.

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