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  1. #1861
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    that he had sex when he was 13... Da fuck Sweden?
    she*

    and that would be me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaith View Post
    Not sure what's happening over here imo, but we have our priorities wrong, in this case too much socialism can be bad.
    Has nothing to do with socialism, it's got to do with the police being unable to protect women from abusive men. Even if they've left them they can still find them and hurt them.
    Last edited by Tiili; 2013-01-21 at 11:07 PM.
    Close your eyes and smile.
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  2. #1862
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post


    This woman explains it 1000 times better then i ever could, im just a dumb man after all. It starts at 12:22.
    Well I guess I am a raging man hater on here but that video is crap.

    If you look at history women have always been disposable when compare to men because we could not carry on the family name or business. And if we look at womb as making women women have value then what of women who cannot bare children? Do they not have value? That whole way of thinking makes women valuable not as a person but as a reproductive tool. I will agree with what was said about marriage/fatherhood and how that is shown in the media. There are not many strong male examples in the media you either get the whorish alpha male, the I am just happy to find a woman that wants to sleep with me male, or damaged goods beware.

    As for male identity the times have changed and with it a lot things that encompassed male identity have become neutral, the provider, the protector and etc are not roles that women take up as well. The trade off with that is now men can take on roles as the nurturer, the comforter, and etc but some men are unwilling to embrace this traditionally female roles. Women have moved on from the traditional roles they were forced to take for so long and yes that has come at the cost of the "male identity" because the male identity was built around that of the female identity.

    blah....I am not going to write a wall of text about this.

  3. #1863
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    she*

    and that would be me.



    Has nothing to do with socialism, it's got to do with the police being unable to protect women from abusive men. Even if they've left them they can still find them and hurt them.
    .... And the other way around.
    I had sex when I was eleven. I was coerced by a 13 year old girl. Not you, Tiili!
    But please don't forget that the problem isn't that the police is unable to protect women from abusive men. The police is unable to protect people from abusive people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebildays View Post
    If you look at history women have always been disposable when compare to men because we could not carry on the family name or business. And if we look at womb as making women women have value then what of women who cannot bare children? Do they not have value? That whole way of thinking makes women valuable not as a person but as a reproductive tool. I will agree with what was said about marriage/fatherhood and how that is shown in the media. There are not many strong male examples in the media you either get the whorish alpha male, the I am just happy to find a woman that wants to sleep with me male, or damaged goods beware.

    As for male identity the times have changed and with it a lot things that encompassed male identity have become neutral, the provider, the protector and etc are not roles that women take up as well. The trade off with that is now men can take on roles as the nurturer, the comforter, and etc but some men are unwilling to embrace this traditionally female roles. Women have moved on from the traditional roles they were forced to take for so long and yes that has come at the cost of the "male identity" because the male identity was built around that of the female identity.
    Does the phrase 'women and children first' ring a bell? Or the fact that crimes against women were, historically, always rated as much more atrocious than crimes against men?
    I'm not saying that women were treated fairly in the past six thousand years. I'm not saying they were treated better either. I'm just saying that, at least on this one, you're wrong.

  4. #1864
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    .... And the other way around.
    I had sex when I was eleven. I was coerced by a 13 year old girl. Not you, Tiili!
    And did you report that to the police?

    But please don't forget that the problem isn't that the police is unable to protect women from abusive men. The police is unable to protect people from abusive people.
    Depends on how you look at it. If a woman has got a kid with an abusive man and she gets a protected identity the man still somehow has the right to see the kid. It's a major flaw in the system. Through the kid he can find out where the woman lives = major fuck up from the state. It got a woman murdered in Malmö not too long ago.

    But yes, it applies to abusive people in general aswell.
    Close your eyes and smile.
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  5. #1865
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    And did you report that to the police?
    I was eleven. I didn't even realize it was an option. Besides, boys don't cry, right?


    Depends on how you look at it. If a woman has got a kid with an abusive man and she gets a protected identity the man still somehow has the right to see the kid. It's a major flaw in the system. Through the kid he can find out where the woman lives = major fuck up from the state. It got a woman murdered in Malmö not too long ago.

    But yes, it applies to abusive people in general aswell.
    And this goes the other way as well... An abusive woman can track her ex through the children as well.

    Domestic abuse towards males is only recently getting more attention... And it's such a big problem here that the police has taken to putting up posters all over the place, notifying males that are domestically abused by their spouses to seek help from the law.
    Yet I'm not going to insinuate that only males are the target of domestic violence. Because that would be rubbish. I do expect the same courtesy from others.

  6. #1866
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebildays View Post
    If you look at history women have always been disposable when compare to men because we could not carry on the family name or business. And if we look at womb as making women women have value then what of women who cannot bare children? Do they not have value?
    Did they? From history books and literature we know that the image of the old woman with no children is usually that of a bitter outcast. Society created this stereotypical image over the centuries. The man has always had less value as a person. His value comes from what he does, not what he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebildays View Post
    That whole way of thinking makes women valuable not as a person but as a reproductive tool.
    When the most important thing in life was survival, yes. This hasn't been the case in millenia. Women changed this stereotype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebildays View Post
    As for male identity the times have changed and with it a lot things that encompassed male identity have become neutral, the provider, the protector and etc are not roles that women take up as well. The trade off with that is now men can take on roles as the nurturer, the comforter, and etc but some men are unwilling to embrace this traditionally female roles. Women have moved on from the traditional roles they were forced to take for so long and yes that has come at the cost of the "male identity" because the male identity was built around that of the female identity.
    The male identity of a father figure is undermined by the Child support. What women and the governemt are telling us is "You are not needed anymore. The woman gets to make all decisions, because of her womb. If you refuse to provide you are going to jail"

    http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/10/su...esearch-finds/

    The impact of divorce on suicide is so strong, it can even be gleaned from international comparisons. Among industrialized nations, those with the highest divorce rates also have the highest suicide rates.
    Men want to feel like they matter, but you and the government tell us we dont. When we don't we slip in to depression and you can see the results. Leading cause of death (besides sickness) in the USA last year was Suicide. Males are almost 80% of this figure.
    Last edited by Cybran; 2013-01-21 at 11:34 PM.

  7. #1867
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebildays View Post
    Well I guess I am a raging man hater on here but that video is crap.

    If you look at history women have always been disposable when compare to men because we could not carry on the family name or business. And if we look at womb as making women women have value then what of women who cannot bare children? Do they not have value? That whole way of thinking makes women valuable not as a person but as a reproductive tool. I will agree with what was said about marriage/fatherhood and how that is shown in the media. There are not many strong male examples in the media you either get the whorish alpha male, the I am just happy to find a woman that wants to sleep with me male, or damaged goods beware.

    As for male identity the times have changed and with it a lot things that encompassed male identity have become neutral, the provider, the protector and etc are not roles that women take up as well. The trade off with that is now men can take on roles as the nurturer, the comforter, and etc but some men are unwilling to embrace this traditionally female roles. Women have moved on from the traditional roles they were forced to take for so long and yes that has come at the cost of the "male identity" because the male identity was built around that of the female identity.

    blah....I am not going to write a wall of text about this.
    I enjoyed the video and your post. Times are a changing, but sometimes the in between part is horrible and sucks ass. You're right, men can take on those roles, but as you also said, those roles aren;t really glorified or respected at all in society. The video makes a great point that men previously enjoyed and were respected for doing things that women could/did not do. Being a body count to defend the village or country is something still glorified to this day for a reason. Women don't/can't do it, so it gave men more value. The video was saying that women naturally get lots of value because they can give birth, keep the genes/human race going while men cannot. This is not to say that women can't make themselves valuable in any other way, but men cannot share in this truly unique form of value.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 06:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    And did you report that to the police?



    Depends on how you look at it. If a woman has got a kid with an abusive man and she gets a protected identity the man still somehow has the right to see the kid. It's a major flaw in the system. Through the kid he can find out where the woman lives = major fuck up from the state. It got a woman murdered in Malmö not too long ago.

    But yes, it applies to abusive people in general aswell.
    This is a problem regarding bad people, and not something that is unique to men, or laws unique to men etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  8. #1868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    How the hell does that even relate to socialism?
    It's like saying goats eating being fed rhododendron is socialism's fault. :S

    Socialism affects our rules about father and mother responsibilities regarding child support.

    (not that i am against socialism in general)

  9. #1869
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    Depends on how you look at it. If a woman has got a kid with an abusive man and she gets a protected identity the man still somehow has the right to see the kid. It's a major flaw in the system. Through the kid he can find out where the woman lives = major fuck up from the state. It got a woman murdered in Malmö not too long ago.

    But yes, it applies to abusive people in general aswell.
    Is there not a way to fix this by denying abusive partners contact with their former spouse or their child? I don't know too much about the laws in Sweden, but it is messed up that abusive people can get to their victims through their kids.

  10. #1870
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebildays View Post
    blah....I am not going to write a wall of text about this.
    That's why I didn't bother - that video was too fucking stupid to address.

  11. #1871
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    This is a problem regarding bad people, and not something that is unique to men, or laws unique to men etc.
    I'm well aware of that but many cases where a woman has killed a man in Sweden it has been a case of self-defense from her part. It's very rare in Sweden.

    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    Is there not a way to fix this by denying abusive partners contact with their former spouse or their child? I don't know too much about the laws in Sweden, but it is messed up that abusive people can get to their victims through their kids.
    "The other parent has the right to see their kid as one of its parents"

    It needs fixing, yes. If one gets protected identity the other parent shouldn't even be allowed to see the kid no matter what. There's been women who lost the custody of their kids to the man when they've not let the kids see their abusive ex-partner out of fear of them hurting the kids.
    Last edited by Tiili; 2013-01-22 at 12:02 AM.
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  12. #1872
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    I'm well aware of that but many cases where a woman has killed a man in Sweden it has been a case of self-defense from her part. It's very rare in Sweden.
    Do not confuse rarely reported with rare.

  13. #1873
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    Do not confuse rarely reported with rare.
    You're welcome to search for cases where a woman kills a man, in Sweden. It is rare. When it does happen on the other hand media is all like "OH MY GOD, A WOMAN MURDERED SOMEONE!!!!!".
    Close your eyes and smile.
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  14. #1874
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    You're welcome to search for cases where a woman kills a man, in Sweden. It is rare. When it does happen on the other hand media is all like "OH MY GOD, A WOMAN MURDERED SOMEONE!!!!!".
    Sorry, I thought you were referring to domestic violence against men in general.

  15. #1875
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    Sorry, I thought you were referring to domestic violence against men in general.
    No, but I'm aware of that domestic violence happens against men aswell. That is also a problem which should be dealt with.
    Close your eyes and smile.
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  16. #1876
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Does the phrase 'women and children first' ring a bell? Or the fact that crimes against women were, historically, always rated as much more atrocious than crimes against men?
    I'm not saying that women were treated fairly in the past six thousand years. I'm not saying they were treated better either. I'm just saying that, at least on this one, you're wrong.
    So many things I want to reply to but I will just quote this one and go down the list.

    Not completely true, women could be beaten and raped by their husbands at will because that was his right as her husband. Also it is not because women and children had a higher value than men but that they were seen as weaker. And the role of the male as "protector" is to protect the weak not abuse them. It is widely seen that a man should be able to protect himself and his family so when another male goes against that it is a break in the male identity and therefore is seen as atrocious. I am not saying I am right 100% but things are never black and white especially when it comes to gender roles and how males are treated. Remember now we also live in a world where in certain places babies are aborted or killed for simply being female. In the past Kings have left queens or killed them for not giving a male child. We can not say that females have more value than a male when we can look at see that at best they were well cared for property and at worst a sex/birthing doll.

    @ Cybran
    What made woman valuable was not just that they could have children but that they could have male children, having a male child is what gave women the most power. Males have always been more valuable because they could do more than a woman could. They had a higher value because the value was placed on what a man does over what a man is and that is what women were and still do fight for. In the past any woman off the street could have a child that is why brides came with gifts to make them more appealing to males. A female child was nothing but a burden until she could be married off but a male child was an heir. Someone that would learn things and take over for the head male when the time comes.
    And women have what is basically a sell by date because our eggs get old and man can have children well past his prime and still have healthy children a woman cannot. We loose our value when we loose the ability to have children but men keep their value because they can move from workers to mentors shaping the males of the future.

    Child support does not say you are not needed. Males are still needed in a child's life because they teach a child what a man is and what a man is supposed to do. Like my dad for example, I did not know what my dad did for a job but his value to me was in how he treated me. He was proud of me and when people would ask him if he wished he had sons well would tell them no he was happy with his girls. My dad took me shopping, he bought me toys and not just girl toys like dolls but things like video games, trucks and microscopes. We would watch horror movies and boxing together and he never took a vacation because he used the money to buy us Christmas. My dad was a man and dammit he had a value, he was not disposal or unneeded to me. Fathers are need to children not just for money but for who they are what they can show children about what it means to be a man. Fathers show children that it is not what a man does for a living that makes him a man but what he does for those around him that makes him a man.

    @Lemonpartyfan
    The seed of men has always had a special place when seen for reproduction. It was the "seed" that created life but it was the woman's body that held it. Women were mainly seen as incubators and not something that gave a child half of it's genes. You are right about the "new" roles that men can take in society not being well respected. Stay at home dads are looked down on for choose to stay at home and "tend house". But there are some good things that are happening because you know see more things in the media about men taking care of children. People should have their value placed on them for who they are as a person not what they can do. So I can have a baby does that give me more value then say Stephen Hawking? No, Stephen Hawking has more value than me and womb combined.

    And the whole dying for country thing is just that it just sounds manly when someone says "He died for this country protecting the freedoms of its people".

  17. #1877
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    You're welcome to search for cases where a woman kills a man, in Sweden. It is rare. When it does happen on the other hand media is all like "OH MY GOD, A WOMAN MURDERED SOMEONE!!!!!".
    I think he means to say that females abusing males is rarely reported, not exactly the killing part.

  18. #1878
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    I think he means to say that females abusing males is rarely reported, not exactly the killing part.
    Yeah but I was talking about cases where the woman gets killed by the man. The reverse situation rarely happens in Sweden and when it does happen it's mostly self-defense from the womans part.

    Though, I understood he was talking about domestic violence from his reply, which is something that should be fixed aswell.
    Last edited by Tiili; 2013-01-22 at 12:24 AM.
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  19. #1879
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashnazg View Post
    Basically what the article shows is that modern attitudes to sex and fidelity need to be re-thought.

    Its unreasonable to expect your partner to stay faithful to you for one. I don't expect my girlfriend to be faithful to me, I merely expect her to be subtle about it and not catch any STDs or pregnancies while she is at it.

    Why wouldn't you expect your partner to stay faithful to you? Isn't that just a basic level of trust, the foundation on which your relationship is based? That just seems extremely dysfunctional if you don't have that expectation unless you have discussed this beforehand. If you have, then you're in an open relationship which is completely different than your standard singular partner relationship that most people have. If you're cheating then you're lying, which means your relationship is garbage and you should get out.

    As for the article, that's only for a small area of the globe. I'd like to see if it these attitudes were similar in other regions or not before you go condemning women. I have a feeling that men are just as bad in the fidelity department as women. It's a bit harder to gauge men sabotaging birth control as their only means of control for the most part are the condoms. Women have the pill, shots, condoms, any emergency contraception, and the list goes on. Simply because women have more ways of contraception means that there's more instances of them being able to lie and destroy it.
    Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
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  20. #1880
    I am Murloc! Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melodi View Post
    Why wouldn't you expect your partner to stay faithful to you? Isn't that just a basic level of trust, the foundation on which your relationship is based? That just seems extremely dysfunctional if you don't have that expectation unless you have discussed this beforehand. If you have, then you're in an open relationship which is completely different than your standard singular partner relationship that most people have. If you're cheating then you're lying, which means your relationship is garbage and you should get out.

    As for the article, that's only for a small area of the globe. I'd like to see if it these attitudes were similar in other regions or not before you go condemning women. I have a feeling that men are just as bad in the fidelity department as women. It's a bit harder to gauge men sabotaging birth control as their only means of control for the most part are the condoms. Women have the pill, shots, condoms, any emergency contraception, and the list goes on. Simply because women have more ways of contraception means that there's more instances of them being able to lie and destroy it.
    Well I am sure the male could sabotage the females protection as well...
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

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