Boy... this makes me really eager to stop advocating mens rights...

[Deleted]

Ehm... I wanted to keep out of this, but you see, this is where some trouble starts:

You see, the woman caries the fetus. Therefore, it is reasoned, that it is her choice whether or not she aborts it.
What if the father wants to keep the child? Tough luck for him. And that, I'm afraid, is rather nasty, seeing as his hormonal systems have already adapted to the pregnancy. Males do respond physically to a pregnancy, you see. Males physically change as well.

Wait what, how would a males hormones change from pregnancy? How would he know the woman is pregnant unless told so?

[MagicMedicine]

and no one in their right mind can claim that a woman aborting and a man walking out are an equal decision with equal results.
unless they dont care about "equality".

No, but perhaps more equal than the current state of affairs.

its a rhetorical question.

Which does nothing to negate the point I was making.

Pregnancy can't be equal you know. Trying to "fix" equality in regards to pregnancy won't happen unless men can give birth aswell.

Well if the fact we're biologically different means that we should simply accept innevitability and do nothing to work towards achieving greater equality. Perhaps men should get more pay for a physical labour job given that they're inherently more physically capable than a woman?

So men would essentially get a get out jail free card...that is hardly equal.

An abortion has a financial,physical and emotional cost.

What? Sweeping generalisation. Financial cost? Much like being forced to pay for a child you do not want and are not responsible for (in the event of sabotaged birth control which the article we're discussing would suggest isn't all too unlikely). Physical? Minor, at best, unless complications occur. Emotional cost? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. You think men don't care? It's not going to emotionally affect a person knowing that their child is growing up somewhere without them? You think it doesn't affect a man to know that his child has been aborted? Sometimes even without his knowledge/concent. Bullshit. Think before you post.

[starlord]

So you simply think that once a woman is pregnant the man should just sit down, shut up and accept whatever fate the woman deals him?

yes, because when he chose to have sex with her he chose to put his fate in her hands.

If a kid is born it is entirely because of the woman's choice. A man should not be de-facto obligated to financially support a woman's right to choose.

Even the president of NOW agrees with that stance.

hes not supporting her right to choose, hes supporting a child that he chose to help make.

[Deleted]

Well if the fact we're biologically different means that we should simply accept innevitability and do nothing to work towards achieving greater equality. Perhaps men should get more pay for a physical labour job given that they're inherently more physically capable than a woman?

What job is it that a man can perform in todays society that women cannot?

[Laize]

yes, because when he chose to have sex with her he chose to put his fare in her hands.

See that's where we fundamentally disagree. Just because nature placed us on unequal footing in this matter does not mean nothing can or should be done to equalize it.

As an aside, are you drunk or otherwise impaired? I have to read your posts twice to get context... almost every time.

hes not supporting her right to choose, hes supporting a child that he chose to help make.

Which is a direct result of her right to choose. If she chose not to abort she's forcing him to financially support her right to choose not to abort.

If he is unwilling and gives her plenty of time to make an informed decision, he should be held harmless for child support. Her right to choose bodily autonomy should not supersede his right to reproductive autonomy (Where that does not violate her rights).

[Stir]

Wait what, how would a males hormones change from pregnancy? How would he know the woman is pregnant unless told so?

Pheromones.
Edit: Though it's not a conscious thing.

[starlord]

Well if the fact we're biologically different means that we should simply accept innevitability and do nothing to work towards achieving greater equality. Perhaps men should get more pay for a physical labour job given that they're inherently more physically capable than a woman?

yes, we should just accept the fact that men & women have different reproductive organs.

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 05:48 AM ----------

Pheromones.
Edit: Though it's not a conscious thing.

he cant be affected by them unless hes with her all the time in any case.

[Laize]

What job is it that a man can perform in todays society that women cannot?

Sperm donor.

Jokes aside, there is none. There are absolutely jobs that men (generally) can perform better than women just like there are probably jobs women can (generally) perform better than men.

Employment compensation should be based on qualifications and performance. If someone can't perform the task as well as someone else, they shouldn't get paid as much. Would you argue that?

[Stir]

yes, we should just accept the fact that men & women have different reproductive organs.

This doesn't answer the actual question.
And if you would say it does, then I pose to you that male muscle tissue develops slightly differently from female muscle tissue in the same way that female mammary glands are more enhanced than male mammary glands, and the fact that the female penis is smaller than the male one but basically the same, and that ovaries and testicles are pretty much the same but different... If we go that rote and just accept it, then we háve to accept that males will be treated better in a physical environment, that males will have better chances of getting a job in physical labour because 'we have different reproductive organs.'
I'm pretty sure you're not trying to advocate sexism... So loose the double standards.

he cant be affected by them unless hes with her all the time in any case.

And yet this physical change only occurs when it's his own.
So the whole idea of 'toss him out the moment you think the condom leaked so that he has no rights the the child' is rather nasty.

[starlord]

See that's where we fundamentally disagree. Just because nature placed us on unequal footing in this matter does not mean nothing can or should be done to equalize it.

sure, as soon as technology advances to the point where men can carry children.

As an aside, are you drunk or otherwise impaired? I have to read your posts twice to get context... almost every time.

im on an iphone and typing out long posts is extremely difficult.

Which is a direct result of her right to choose. If she chose not to abort she's forcing him to financially support her right to choose not to abort.

no, hes financially supporting a child. she must also support it. the "right to choose" exists whether or not legislation supports it.

If he is unwilling and gives her plenty of time to make an informed decision, he should be held harmless for child support. Her right to choose bodily autonomy should not supersede his right to reproductive autonomy (Where that does not violate her rights).

he had plenty of time to make an informed decision on "do i want to risk getting this woman pregnant?". stop trying to make child support about "evil women". "evil men" trick women into having children all the time, thinking they will have his support for it. if they then dump it on him, she still pays child support.

[Cybran]

yes, because when he chose to have sex with her he chose to put his fate in her hands.

She chose to keep the child/not take the pill/have sex with the neighbor and he was against it. Why should he be responsible? This is total nonsense.

hes not supporting her right to choose, hes supporting a child that he chose to help make.

A child he never wanted.

[Grizzly Willy]

And if you don't think any women exist that would entrap men by getting pregnant, then please suggest as much.

Depends on whether or not you're suggesting that you don't think any men that exist that would get a girl pregnant then leave her to take care of the child herself.

[Deleted]

Sperm donor.

Jokes aside, there is none. There are absolutely jobs that men (generally) can perform better than women just like there are probably jobs women can (generally) perform better than men.

Employment compensation should be based on qualifications and performance. If someone can't perform the task as well as someone else, they shouldn't get paid as much. Would you argue that?

Not at all. What I would argue against is that men and women should be paid different amounts of money for the same job performed if that would happen. If it's based on personal performance, no issues at all from my side.

[Bruddoris]

yes, because when he chose to have sex with her he chose to put his fate in her hands.

hes not supporting her right to choose, hes supporting a child that he chose to help make.

I'm just going to point something out that seems to be very overlooked here, just a few Points that bother me.

1. Even if the Laws were made because of fathers not paying to support their children, And I'm far more inclined to believe they were made because of the social climate of the times, many of these laws are many decades old, and were written by men who were long into their later years who remembered the days when the mother stayed home and cooked and cleaned and raised the children and the father worked, so naturally many of them put this model into the legislation. No one can argue that in many situations there is a gender bias that favors financial assistance to the woman.

2. many posts talk about immature irresponsible men who will have sex with a woman get her pregnant then want nothing to do with the child, my problem here is these same posts generally talk about how terrible these men are, and while I don't disagree that they are behaving in an inappropriate way I have to point out, Men in general are not that complicated, we send pretty clear signals there is just as much blame on the women who sleep with these men to be responsible for their choices. I do not for one second believe that before you slept with this irresponsible immature man who wants to run off and leave you with a baby to raise, he was running a youth out reach program and organizing his churches soup kitchen, and in every way was the model of an honest respectable man, and it was just after sleeping with you that he proved to be this horrible person. He was a jerk and a player when you slept with him you thought it would just be a bit of fun, but then oops you got pregnant now you want him to be responsible but you don't want to point out that you were equally irresponsible to begin with. that is where I say BS.

[starlord]

This doesn't answer the actual question.
And if you would say it does, then I pose to you that male muscle tissue develops slightly differently from female muscle tissue in the same way that female mammary glands are more enhanced than male mammary glands, and the fact that the female penis is smaller than the male one but basically the same, and that ovaries and testicles are pretty much the same but different... If we go that rote and just accept it, then we háve to accept that males will be treated better in a physical environment, that males will have better chances of getting a job in physical labour because 'we have different reproductive organs.'
I'm pretty sure you're not trying to advocate sexism... So loose the double standards.

all of those differences are far more neglible than "capable of giving birth". and i dont know its a double standard that men & women both have the right to bodily autonomy. i guess if we put "except when it comes to uteruses" it wouldnt be a double standard?

And yet this physical change only occurs when it's his own.
So the whole idea of 'toss him out the moment you think the condom leaked so that he has no rights the the child' is rather nasty.

i dont know where you got this idea.

[holyevil44]

y people argue whit darenyon ? you dudes know that you will NEVER EVER win against a feminist idk y you guys are trying and btw wen a women make a child wen the guy don't want one we have to live whit 18 YEARS of payment to somebody that used you to make a child that you did not want and most of the time they do it for money there is allot of women that use that said child support to buy thing for her self ad not the child .... even in canada women mari than make a child than divorce right away just to get money that what happen wen men have 0 rights

[Deleted]

y people argue whit darenyon ? you dudes know that you will NEVER EVER win against a feminist idk y you guys are trying and btw wen a women make a child wen the guy don't want one we have to live whit 18 YEARS of payment to somebody that used you to make a child that you did not want and most of the time they do it for money there is allot of women that use that said child support to buy thing for her self ad not the child .... even in the use and canada women mari make a child than divorce right away just to get money that what happen wen men have 0 rights

Woah. No punctuation? Could you like, please, try to do something about that? :|

[Laize]

sure, as soon as technology advances to the point where men can carry children.

No.

im on an iphone and typing out long posts is extremely difficult.

There's your problem. Get an android.

no, hes financially supporting a child. she must also support it. the "right to choose" exists whether or not legislation supports it.

The legislation does not support a bilateral right to choose. We're saying it should.

he had plenty of time to make an informed decision on "do i want to risk getting this woman pregnant?". stop trying to make child support about "evil women". "evil men" trick women into having children all the time, thinking they will have his support for it. if they then dump it on him, she still pays child support.

You're placing the entirety of his situation on him. That's dishonest and ridiculous. As you said, it takes two to tango and HIS fate should not be entirely in HER hands.

[Bruddoris]

he is french Canadian that is how they speak.

Infracted.

[starlord]

She chose to keep the child/not take the pill/have sex with the neighbor and he was against it. Why should he be responsible? This is total nonsense.

"have sex with the neighbor" is irrelevant- then the neighbor should be responsible.
in the other two, he is also partly responsible, so he has part of the respinsibility.

a child he never wanted.

an unwanted child must still be provided for.