1. #1

    [Feral] Deciding when to use SD vs FR

    Just had a long discussion with an officer in my guild about when is appropriate to use SD vs FR. Now to give a little backstory, I just recently changed mains to go back to my Druid, who prior to MoP was my main since vanilla. My guild has not had a Bear since Cata, so with all of the changes to tanks this expac, some differences of opinion are to be expected. Obviously, since we've been raiding for a few months now, my Druid is not quite as well geared as our other tanks, but I am ilvl 483 so I think I am geared to handle normal content. (that's just my opinion, I'm sure someone will disagree)

    The other night I came in for our 10 man cleanup on Empress in HoF. Had no problem on the boss, but was dying to the packs every attempt. First attempt was my fault, because I didn't think to use a cd when initially picking up my adds. After that though, I was pulling with SI up and using SD and FR as I felt was needed. Meaning, I use SD when I have the rage, but if my hp is dangerously low, I use FR. I was told that I should not be using FR at all, that I should pool my rage exclusively for SD usage. The officer is convinced that my dodge is entirely too low (it's about 14.35% raid buffed) and that the difference between my physical dmg reduction from armor and the Paladin's that I was tanking with is negligable. When I checked the logs from that fight, I noticed I was taking less dmg than the other tank every attempt, and that 2 out of my 5 top heals received were my LotP and FR. We also had no HoT healer and one of the 3 heals was playing his offspec.

    I know that unlike previous expansions, I really haven't tanked a lot this expansion, so I know I could quite possibly be making a few mistakes with all the changes. (It took me a couple months to learn I should be reforging for crit/hit/exp instead of dodge/mastery) But what do you all think of this situation? Should I be ignoring FR on packs of adds in favor of exclusively using SD and hoping the heals will come? Or do you all think it's appropriate to use both? Please note, I'm not here to bash on my guild or the officer I spoke with. Like I said, they haven't had a Druid tank for awhile so I expect there to be differences of opinion on things.

  2. #2
    Magic damage? Use Frenzied Regeneration.
    Less then 60 rage? Use Frenzied Regeneration.
    Otherwise, use Savage Defense.

    At least that's what I try to do, not that I'm necessarily the best example to follow.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

    -Kujako-

  3. #3
    Please - next time you post here pls make sure u start with [guardian] or whatever is that ur talking about in the title post. Thank you.

  4. #4
    The fact that I'm asking about SD vs FR doesn't tell you which spec I'm referring to?

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frogspoison#1419 Battletag
    Posts
    3,668
    What I like to do is go by this rule of thumb.

    Auto Attack damage >50% of taken damage, SD. <50%, >25% of taken damage, FR+Maul procs. <25% damage taken, FR all the way.

    For fights, Stone Guard, spam FR. Feng, Gara'jal, Spirit Kings, SD. Elegon, FR because of the 50% healing buff. Will, SD. Vizier, Blade Lord, SD. Garalon, FR. Wind Lord, Amber Shaper, Empress, SD. Kaolon, SD, REgail/Asani, FR. Tsulong is a combo of SD and FR- SD before breaths, FR right after a breath lands, and while off tanking. For Lei Shei, FR all the way. Sha is, SD all the way while tanking boss, FR while on the add (Although Maul>FR).

    But yea, its based on the amount of melee damage incoming. In terms of adds, if they melee>15% of hp, I would use SD>FR.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    What I like to do is go by this rule of thumb.

    Auto Attack damage >50% of taken damage, SD. <50%, >25% of taken damage, FR+Maul procs. <25% damage taken, FR all the way.

    For fights, Stone Guard, spam FR. Feng, Gara'jal, Spirit Kings, SD. Elegon, FR because of the 50% healing buff. Will, SD. Vizier, Blade Lord, SD. Garalon, FR. Wind Lord, Amber Shaper, Empress, SD. Kaolon, SD, REgail/Asani, FR. Tsulong is a combo of SD and FR- SD before breaths, FR right after a breath lands, and while off tanking. For Lei Shei, FR all the way. Sha is, SD all the way while tanking boss, FR while on the add (Although Maul>FR).

    But yea, its based on the amount of melee damage incoming. In terms of adds, if they melee>15% of hp, I would use SD>FR.
    So just to be clear, are you saying that on high physical dmg fights you ignore FR completely and save all incoming rage for SD? Or are you just saying you prioritize SD over FR? Just trying to get a feel for what others are doing here in comparison to what I've been doing.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frogspoison#1419 Battletag
    Posts
    3,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    The fact that I'm asking about SD vs FR doesn't tell you which spec I'm referring to?
    Its more of a rule of thumb in the druid forums. If your question is related to boomkins, [Balance] Druid title. Resto, [Resto] Druid title, so on, so forth. Didnt you read the sticky?
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  8. #8
    Nope, been posting on here for a few years and you're the first person to say anything about it. I'm guessing this is a new for MoP thing? Doesn't anyone else think it looks a bit silly seeing [Boomkin] A Question about Boomkins or [Resto] Looking for advice on Resto? I could understand if it was a cross-spec talent question but some stuff seems pretty obvious to me...

  9. #9
    The Patient McWire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    239
    Except for Garalon,Lei-Shi and Stone Guard you will want to use SD as much as possible. ( Heroic Bosses )

    On normal it shouldn't really matter.
    The only real hardhitters in normal are Elegon, MV-Endboss, Empress AddPhase (unless you kite them instead of tanking) and Sha. So you should go SD > Fr on them. On all other fights its up to you and your healers. I went the SD>FR Route (except for said bosses).

    FR Regen can be strong on windlord if you 1 tank it, but its risky since you'll be super spiky(eating every hit(10%dodge~)) without SD.

    I have cleared all normals with ILvL<480 going with that rule.



    Little help for your Empress problem: Make the other tank taunt shortly before addphase begins so you can cap rage and get some SD stacks. If the other tank has to many stacks tell your healers that you'll save rage and that they keep an eye on you. As soon as the Adds attack you keep SD up all the time. You should be able to maintain 36sec SD. Also use your CD's if needed or use RaidCD (Pala-Hand, PS, Banner etc. ). If you have problems getting enough rage to keep SD up save Berserk for that phase.

    If you Still get killed at an instant replace a crit/agi trinket with a stamina one. ( I dont recommend doing that but it helps if your healers have enough mana but simply cant heal you fast enough)
    Last edited by McWire; 2013-01-16 at 08:28 PM.
    "Pathes emerge , by walking them."

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frogspoison#1419 Battletag
    Posts
    3,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    So just to be clear, are you saying that on high physical dmg fights you ignore FR completely and save all incoming rage for SD? Or are you just saying you prioritize SD over FR? Just trying to get a feel for what others are doing here in comparison to what I've been doing.
    On Will, where there is VERY high melee damage, I ignore FR completely outside of Combo. For that, I have a very nice rotation of 3x SD (which covers all melee attacks outside of combo), and then pool rage, spending it on FR during Titan Gas, and Maul during combo for T&C. Also, Wind Lord- very high physical damage there, I ONLY use FR if SD is on cooldown, and im about 50% health (I currently have about 14 RPS generation outside of cooldowns, allowing for decent usage of Maul/FR while keeping SD on cooldown).

    On the other hand, Stone Guard. Ton of physical damage, but nearly all of it comes in Bleed form (They melee for 20k, or 40k on heroic- FR is what needs to be used, constantly.) Lets say Feng- mixture of magic damage through the DoT, and melee damage. He melees for about 70-90k, and the DoT can tick for the same amount. However, I use SD till all charges are used. The reason? In the 6 second time frame, he melees between 2-3 times. I could either potentially dodge 140-270k damage for 60 rage, or heal up 130k damage. Now, druids active mitigation is RNG, unlike other forms of active mitigation (DK, Warrior, Monk). We can either dodge ALL the attacks and take no damage, or dodge no attacks and take full damage with SD up. This also has, more or less, 50% chance of happening.

    But yea, as stated- Melee AUTOATTACK damage>50% of total damage in a fight, rage goes to SD. If you are correctly geared/reforged, you should be able to use about 1 FR for every 3 SDs used.

    Final statement- If you dip below the autoattack damage threshhold (Next autoattack WILL kill you), spam FR until you are back to a happier level. ATM, on normal modes, thats between 80-140k on certain fights. Will is around 120k, Wind Lord, last phase is 130k, ect.

    Hrmm, this is all confusing, but- High melee damage, SD>FR, but ALWAYS FR if you are low health.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 08:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Nope, been posting on here for a few years and you're the first person to say anything about it. I'm guessing this is a new for MoP thing? Doesn't anyone else think it looks a bit silly seeing [Boomkin] A Question about Boomkins or [Resto] Looking for advice on Resto? I could understand if it was a cross-spec talent question but some stuff seems pretty obvious to me...
    Its something that happened a bit after DS came out, there was a post by... Myrrar I think? asking us to do that. Some mod went around putting the titles on all druid posts, and it kinda stuck.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  11. #11
    Thank you all for your replies. So basically the mutual feeling is, on high physical dmg fights, SD > FR, BUT, if your hp gets low, it's better to hit FR than hope SD keeps you alive? That's kinda what I thought but since the officer in my guild was so adamant that I was wrong, I thought I'd get a second opinion.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Thank you all for your replies. So basically the mutual feeling is, on high physical dmg fights, SD > FR, BUT, if your hp gets low, it's better to hit FR than hope SD keeps you alive? That's kinda what I thought but since the officer in my guild was so adamant that I was wrong, I thought I'd get a second opinion.
    I would add to that using Frenzied Regeneration when you dont have enough rage for Savage Defense. Remember, even though they both have 60 rage costs, Frenzied Regeneration can be used with less for a lesser effect.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

    -Kujako-

  13. #13
    The Patient McWire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    239
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Thank you all for your replies. So basically the mutual feeling is, on high physical dmg fights, SD > FR, BUT, if your hp gets low, it's better to hit FR than hope SD keeps you alive? That's kinda what I thought but since the officer in my guild was so adamant that I was wrong, I thought I'd get a second opinion.
    If you have 60 Rage use SD. If you die with SD up your healers are simply too slow or you got very unlucky with rng.

    When your HP gets low, still use SD and pop a Selfheal CD(Tier 2 Talents).(I recommend using natures swiftment for normal since its only on a 1min CD and gives a decent heal)



    Quote Originally Posted by tentionfree View Post
    Thats good my dea at least that's what I try to do, not that I'm necessarily the best example to follow. Little help for your Empress problem: Make the other tank taunt shortly before addphase begins so you can cap rage and get some SD stacks. If the other tank has to many stacks tell your healers that you'll save rage and that they keep an eye on you. As soon as the Adds attack you keep SD up all the time. You should be able to maintain 36sec SD. Also use your CD's if needed or use RaidCD. If you have problems getting enough rage to keep SD up save Berserk for that phase.
    Isnt that word to word what I wrote ?
    "Pathes emerge , by walking them."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •