Forcing us out of GoSaC = self healing nerf?

[martini]

I just saw in a bluepost that Blizzard wants us to run with pets again in the future. Dont get me wrong, I kind of miss having a pet as a warlock but this poses a problem in terms of raiding (and pvping for that matter). We will get alot less selfhealing when going from GoSac to another talent not just in form of the health % per 2 sec but from the healing we recive from Soul leech. Im talking from a affliction warlocks point of view.

Intended/unintended? Do you guys think this is something that blizzard has thought about? Mabie our selfhealing atm is overpowerd?

Me for once really loves being able to heal myself and thereby help my healers. With a pet build our healing will be alot less and it will really hurt the healers I think.

Please tell me what you think about this.

[Ysen]

We will get alot less selfhealing when going from GoSac to another talent not just in form of the health % per 2 sec but from the healing we recive from Soul leech. Im talking from a affliction warlocks point of view.

Not necessarily, if you take Soul Link, you'll get far more healing through Soul Leech (or absorbs given the new Soul Leech) than with GoSac.

[Kinjin]

I'm kinda sad to see thier stance on gosac. The moment I could take gosac I jumped on it.

Maybe I've got rose colored glasses on this one. But in Wrath it seemed like my pet was an asset. It seemed like it was an extension of me and a useful tool. Since Cata and the dumbed down controls and buggy actions, it just seems like an achor that's weighing me down and detracting me from the task at hand. Maybe it's me that changed. I'm not sure.

I know I don't miss:
Watching my pet run in circles doing 0 dps while I multidot everything.
Having to choose a pet that does less dps than another due to fight mechanics with no other option.
Having to create macros to have my pet do what it use to do under the old control system.

I will use Gosac until they either take it away or make it too much of a dps loss.

[Spektroman]

My guess is they want GoSac to be viable for affliction and destro, but not the only (and therefore obvious) choice. You should want a pet in certain situations, and you should want to sacrifice your pet in other situations. Right now, all you do is sac your pet and forget he ever existed. And that's not the point of the talent system, right?

[Killem]

Right now, all you do is sac your pet and forget he ever existed. And that's not the point of the talent system, right?

But it cannot be the point of the talent system that you have to reforge, replace most gems and some enchants, when you want to switch between GoSac and GoSup as destro.
Therefore players will stick to only one of those choices and GoSac is the most obvious choice, because of the strong synergy with Havoc and the fact that you don't have to babysit a brainless pet.
Even if they were exactly balanced or slightly favor pets, I guess most people would still prefer GoSac, since the pet AI can be realy annoying sometimes.

[Last Starfighter]

I just saw in a bluepost that Blizzard wants us to run with pets again in the future. Dont get me wrong, I kind of miss having a pet as a warlock but this poses a problem in terms of raiding (and pvping for that matter). We will get alot less selfhealing when going from GoSac to another talent not just in form of the health % per 2 sec but from the healing we recive from Soul leech. Im talking from a affliction warlocks point of view.

Intended/unintended? Do you guys think this is something that blizzard has thought about? Mabie our selfhealing atm is overpowerd?

Me for once really loves being able to heal myself and thereby help my healers. With a pet build our healing will be alot less and it will really hurt the healers I think.

Please tell me what you think about this.

"Alot less healing". We have access to alot of self healing. I could care less about the GoSac healing. I want to use supremecy and service without hurting my dps on single target fights. I think you're trying to justify keeping a talent the way it is. If you are worried about taxing the healers, then keep GoSac. It isn't going away.

And right now we're forced into GoSac. Blizzard's intent is to bring them all closer in line. Having a clear winner like GoSac for affliction goes against the design philosophy.

[pokeadott]

The problem is they did it ass backwards. Leaving Demo out, GoSac is the go to talent for Destro multi-target fights because it works great with Havok, whereas GoSac is the defacto Aff single target talent because it buffs MG but it sucks on fights with a ton of adds/multidotting. It's a talent without an identity.

Conceptually, pets are good for single target/patchwerk style bosses (anything that doesn't involves target switching, etc.). I hate my pet when it runs all over the map from target to target failing every step of the way. So, overall they should make GoSac do slightly lower single target dps than GoSup, and let it still do slightly higher dps when there are adds. This is already the case for Destro, they just need to redesign AffSac to benefit DoTs and not MG. Balance it similarly and all of a sudden the GoSac vs. GoSup makes sense.

GoServ is always gonna be the odd man out, but its just supposed to be for niche (alla Spine) fights anyway.

[Spektroman]

But it cannot be the point of the talent system that you have to reforge, replace most gems and some enchants, when you want to switch between GoSac and GoSup as destro.
Therefore players will stick to only one of those choices and GoSac is the most obvious choice, because of the strong synergy with Havoc and the fact that you don't have to babysit a brainless pet.
Even if they were exactly balanced or slightly favor pets, I guess most people would still prefer GoSac, since the pet AI can be realy annoying sometimes.

Since I'm not sure of the numbers, I'll ask: what is the actual DPS difference between going full haste + pet vs going mastery/crit + pet?

If the difference is more than 2-3% then I agree, it can't be the design intent that you fully reforge/gem every time you switch talents, and it's something that should be brought to the attention of the devs (things like how much haste benefits your pet vs mastery/crit, and how mastery/crit is miles ahead of haste when going with GoSac) with - and this is important - data to back it up.

Conceptually, pets are good for single target/patchwerk style bosses (anything that doesn't involves target switching, etc.). I hate my pet when it runs all over the map from target to target failing every step of the way. So, overall they should make GoSac do slightly lower single target dps than GoSup, and let it still do slightly higher dps when there are adds. This is already the case for Destro, they just need to redesign AffSac to benefit DoTs and not MG. Balance it similarly and all of a sudden the GoSac vs. GoSup makes sense.

Exactly. I never got why GoSac buffs Malefic Grasp for affliction rather than DoTs.

[n0n3]

Problem with pets is that when u constantly switch targets if the pet its a meleer he has to run from target to target and thats a dps loss.
If they want us to use pets i want the fel imp to come on top with dps mainly coz he's ranged and u dont lose any dps when u switch targets, also make sure he doesnt die to the new boss mechanics.

[Xeraxis]

Problem with pets is that when u constantly switch targets if the pet its a meleer he has to run from target to target and thats a dps loss.
If they want us to use pets i want the fel imp to come on top with dps mainly coz he's ranged and u dont lose any dps when u switch targets, also make sure he doesnt die to the new boss mechanics.

Place your pet on passive and use the /petattack command. I know it's hard to believe that a pet class may have to control their pets but some times it is needed.

[Depravitty]

Place your pet on passive and use the /petattack command. I know it's hard to believe that a pet class may have to control their pets but some times it is needed.

Or just leave your pet on a permanent target but you know that may make to much sense.

[shinewaylee]

It's 2% evrey 5s,far from some classes 3% per 1s.Our pet is too weak to easyily die in pvp.

[n0n3]

Place your pet on passive and use the /petattack command. I know it's hard to believe that a pet class may have to control their pets but some times it is needed.

I used to do that before mop, i had /petattack on haunt but still some fights required target switch in order to kill some add asap and when u do this switch, if there's a 40 yd distance between boss and that add your pet has to walk there in our case the felhunter, by the time your pet starts to do any dps on that mob he might be dead or half hp wich results in a dps loss.
Lastly lets not forget that pets are very susceptible to die on boss mechanics. They usually fix this in time but it can take months until they do it.

[Jessicka]

GoServ is always gonna be the odd man out, but its just supposed to be for niche (alla Spine) fights anyway.

Not really. The idea is that Supremacy is the "easymode" option, and Service adds the complexity of adding a cooldown from which good timing will grant you more output. GC actually said they *try* to balance such abilities in a way that should offer a little more output in order to reward effort and compensate a little for screwing up. By that logic, Service should be the theoretical best choice. Even then though, it should be minor enough that it's not the obvious and therefore "only" choice that Sac is for Destro and Affliction right now.

Exactly. I never got why GoSac buffs Malefic Grasp for affliction rather than DoTs.

Because then it would still be the obvious grimoire for every encounter you could put dots on more than one target.

[martini]

Not necessarily, if you take Soul Link, you'll get far more healing through Soul Leech (or absorbs given the new Soul Leech) than with GoSac.

I dont quite see why we would get alot more healing with soul link, I mean, wont that just make us sitting there ressing pets throughout the fight?

[Jessicka]

I dont quite see why we would get alot more healing with soul link, I mean, wont that just make us sitting there ressing pets throughout the fight?

Soul Link gives you a shared health pool with your pet, so all healing received is split between both allowing you to receive double healing from AoE and smart heals. Your pet is actually therefore far less likely to die with Soul Link than without.

[pokeadott]

Because then it would still be the obvious grimoire for every encounter you could put dots on more than one target.

So? That actually makes sense. It's IMPOSSIBLE to balance GoSac for Aff/Destro when the talent functions at different ends of the polarity spectrum. Either it becomes the mostly perma go-to talent or it becomes only used on fights like Allysrazor because it maths below Sup. GoSac should be the winner in multiitarget (like it is for Destro) and behind in single target. Not by huge numbers, but enough that good players will guestimate their single target rotation vs. add up-time and figure out which way to go on a given encounter.

If GoSac and GoSup produce equal single target results, why would you ever spec into Sac as affliction? You lose the ability to get pet shield (reedic go to defensive more often than not), you lose dmg on any AoE or multidot situations, etc. What's the incentive?

[KrayZee]

Soul Link gives you a shared health pool with your pet, so all healing received is split between both allowing you to receive double healing from AoE and smart heals. Your pet is actually therefore far less likely to die with Soul Link than without.

I don't see how you get double healing from AoE heals?

edit: nm, I C... while the amount healed will be the same, your HP is worth twice as much (thanks to the shared damage), thus the AoE heal will be twice as effective

[Jessicka]

So? That actually makes sense. It's IMPOSSIBLE to balance GoSac for Aff/Destro when the talent functions at different ends of the polarity spectrum. Either it becomes the mostly perma go-to talent or it becomes only used on fights like Allysrazor because it maths below Sup. GoSac should be the winner in multiitarget (like it is for Destro) and behind in single target. Not by huge numbers, but enough that good players will guestimate their single target rotation vs. add up-time and figure out which way to go on a given encounter.

If GoSac and GoSup produce equal single target results, why would you ever spec into Sac as affliction? You lose the ability to get pet shield (reedic go to defensive more often than not), you lose dmg on any AoE or multidot situations, etc. What's the incentive?

Honestly, I've been saying that since very early beta and the idea should have been scrapped for something that would be less contentious, and less of a development timesink.

The incentive is supposed to be a preference of playstyle and removal of pet management. Tell me what the incentive is for using Service right now?

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 04:28 PM ----------

I don't see how you get double healing from AoE heals?

Pet get heal and you get heal, your shared healthpool therefore gets a double dose of healing.

[pokeadott]

Honestly, I've been saying that since very early beta and the idea should have been scrapped for something that would be less contentious, and less of a development timesink.

The incentive is supposed to be a preference of playstyle and removal of pet management. Tell me what the incentive is for using Service right now?

We disagree on Serv - I truly believe it's there as an option for a 'Spine' style encounter that was one of the go-to lock complaints during the MoP dev cycle. It's also an option in PvP or for 5mans. I honestly haven't paid much attention to demo this xpak (just not a fan of the 'rotation' at all), but I could see some fights using it (HM Windlord maybe?).

I'm fine having 1 niche talent in the tier - I just don't want 2.